O8 hand

mat · #1 01-07-2005, 03:19 PM

what do you think about pre flop, as well as the rest of the hand? my plan on the flop was to check raise i knew that this one wouldnt get checked around and i wanted to knock out other players. so much for that anyhow even though the turn doesnt look bad it just makes it so that any river card besides a ten or a king is bad for me. i know i mishandled this one.

Party Poker 1/2 Omaha/8 (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP raises, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, MP calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP calls, Button raises, Hero folds, BB calls, MP calls.

River: (18 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Yads · #2 01-07-2005, 04:30 PM

Seems ok, you're probably behind to a set and there's almost no card that can come on the river that won't wreck your hand. Having said that not sure I'm laying down top 2 pair in 5 handed game, with 4 having gone to the flop. Any reads on these guys? Are they half way decent or would they easily be raising with out at least top 2 or a monster draw on the turn here?

mat · #3 01-07-2005, 05:01 PM

well in the end i was up against the same two pair and would have split. the game so far had been pretty passive all of the players i think called to much but not a lot of raising.

Buzz · #4 01-08-2005, 09:13 PM

awm - You don't have a very good starting hand for a short handed game. Still, I'd want to see the flop for a single bet with your cards. But when MP raises, I think I might fold. You want more opponents before the flop so that there will be enough money in the pot to justify your investment when you do hit a favorable flop.

Plus, note that you're going to be out of position on the next three betting rounds. When you have opponents who will get out of your way, acting first may be somewhat of an advantage. However, that hardly seems the case here.

You flop top two pair. It would not be unreasonable for you to bet this flop in some games, hoping to win it right there. (This does not seem like one of those games). Instead you check-raise after button raises. Wow! Flopped top two pair is simply not all that great here and you're a long shot (~11 to 1 against) to improve on the turn. Do you think you are playing against idiots? (It's a possibility, I suppose). Do you think your check-raise will make them all cower? (Another possibility, I suppose).

I don't think you have favorable odds for a call here, let alone a check-raise. And note that no one who was involved here was daunted by your check-raise. You simply threw away some of your money for nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
Hero checks, BB bets, MP calls, Button raises, Hero folds, BB calls, MP calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

What cards does Button hold to raise here? Why is Button raising here? Whatever the reason, the ploy is successful since it induces you to fold. Could the expectation of your folding be why Button raises? If so, are you getting out-played here?

Buzz

Yads · #5 01-10-2005, 11:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
awm - You don't have a very good starting hand for a short handed game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to disagree with you Buzz. I think the hand is absolutely fine for shorthanded. He's got double suitedness, decent straight draws and a pair of queens. Unless the flop is all low he will either have the best hand or a good draw on the flop.

Buzz · #6 01-10-2005, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to disagree with you Buzz. I think the hand is absolutely fine for shorthanded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yads - As I wrote, I'd want to see the flop for a single bet with this hand in a five handed game.

In truth, I do not seek out five handed games, and usually not enough opponents want to continue play when the game drops to five handed, so that the game either gains players or soon breaks up when it gets down to five handed. Thus five handed is not very familiar ground for me - nor is it likely, except for some brief tournament last table or two situations, to become familiar ground.

I have this hand pegged as "speculative." When I play "speculative" hands, I like as many opponents as possible seeing the flop with me and for only one bet. But perhaps that assessment is incorrect and I should be delighted to play TQQKd for two bets in a five handed game.

I'd like to see some simulation results for TQQKd (against four opponents with random hands). Simulation results to support your point of view would make me change my mind. I'll run some sims for the hand against four opponents if get to a computer with a simulator this week. (May not happen as tentative plans stand).

[ QUOTE ]
He's got double suitedness, decent straight draws and a pair of queens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the double suitedness and agree the cards are working reasonably well together. If he catches a straight on the flop, he'll have a redraw for a full house, and possibly for a flush. Or he might only have a straight draw after the flop. Or he might have a flush or flush draw. But he still has to catch enough of the flop to continue.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless the flop is all low he will either have the best hand or a good draw on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's necessarily true.
For example, neither J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] nor K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] are good flops.

In point of fact, most flops will not be good for TQQKd.

Buzz

Billy Baroo · #7 01-10-2005, 10:09 PM

In Cappelletti's O8 book, one thing that he points out is that hands with big pairs play well heads up. While there is plenty in that book that I disagree with, it seems that if you can get a hand like this heads up (which admittedly doesn't seem to be the case here) this hand has a lot of value h/u.

Buzz · #8 01-11-2005, 04:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In Cappelletti's O8 book, one thing that he points out is that hands with big pairs play well heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Billy - I think that's probably true. But it's nice to have a couple of low cards to go along with the big pair.

[ QUOTE ]
While there is plenty in that book that I disagree with, it seems that if you can get a hand like this heads up (which admittedly doesn't seem to be the case here) this hand has a lot of value h/u.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try this: Pull the four cards of the hand out of the deck:
T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Then pull another hand out of the deck. A hand with an ace and at least one low card out of the deck. How about:
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
I've chosen a hand you'd have to be crazy to play in a full game, a horrid hand.

Now shuffle the 44 cards left in the stub. There are enough cards left to turn over eight 5-card boards. Deal them out five cards at a time. Look at each of the eight 5-card boards and decide which of the four card hands, TQQKd, or A789n, has the best of it. Make three piles:
• TQQKd scoops
• A789n scoops
• TQQKd and A789n split

Put each 5-card board on one of the piles. The long and the short of it is when you are done, the pile that will have the most cards is the A789n scoops pile. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. If you make the A789 hand suited, it does even better.

Your conclusion should be the same as mine, that TQQKd is not a very good one-on-one hand. I don't think it's a good one-on-two or one-on-three hand either, assuming your opponents are not idiots.

I don't like A789n much either, but heads-up it beats the beejeebers our of TQQKd - and so do most other hands a reasonably skilled opponent would play when you hold TQQKd.

Buzz

Cue-Ball 66 · #9 01-11-2005, 10:43 AM

It certainly doesn't beat the bejeebers out of it. A789 is only a 53% favourite.

BradleyT · #10 01-11-2005, 11:14 AM

How do you play the QQ hand on a flop of

Flop 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

It's not a harmful looking flop for your hand yet it's now a 2:1 dog to the Axxx hand.