PLO8 General Thought

[willmay3]

Dear All:

I was reading Steve Badger's site this evening Steve Badger when I read what may be the truest thing I've ever read in my life.

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However, the most important reason PLO8 games exist as much as they do online is: a high percentage of online poker players drastically overestimate their skill level. While this is true of all games online, this overestimation is more concentrated in big bet games. Mediocre players suddenly think they are God's gift to poker, the second coming of Bret Maverick, when confronted with the pseudo-complexities of PLO8 -- lots of cards, variable/progressive betting. It's one thing to be a mediocre juggler. It's another thing indeed to be a mediocre juggler who insists on juggling seven flaming machetes. (The other place online where mediocre players drastically overate themselves is at head-up games.)

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I know this from personal experience! And if you really want to be stupid, do what I did and play alot of heads up PLO8 games.

Newbies be warned. I think PLO8 may be one of the quickest ways to blow a bankroll there is if, like me, you don't know what you are doing.

With Regards,

Will May

Goddamit Will, delete this post before it gets widely read. Or at least rephrase it as "if you know what you're doing, then shorthanded/HU PLO8 is an incredibly quick and easy buck". Why warn off all your business?

[blumpkin22]

This really isn't that enlightening.

[Drizztdj]

People don't know how to play O8, and I hope it stays that way for a long time.

[Wolffink]

Low Limit 08 is fairly simple.

But I read someone--maybe Gergery--say PL08 may be one of the most complex games.

The way I play it, it's not, except for two-way type hands with 3 players and I'm trying to think of if I can kick someone out and get it head-to-head or just win the pot outright with a big bet.

Donks love to call in any poker game. Bullies love to bully. If you do this in PL08 and put your stack at risk by calling people down and bullying, you'll get killed. People will call you with mediocre highs thinking/hoping you've got low and are trying to push them off. In a high only game, they have to calculate maybe you have a hand, but in PL08, they can delude themselves with wishful thinking and call big bets against monster hands hoping you're going in the other direction only.

[willmay3]

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Low Limit 08 is fairly simple.

But I read someone--maybe Gergery--say PL08 may be one of the most complex games.

The way I play it, it's not, except for two-way type hands with 3 players and I'm trying to think of if I can kick someone out and get it head-to-head or just win the pot outright with a big bet.

Donks love to call in any poker game. Bullies love to bully. If you do this in PL08 and put your stack at risk by calling people down and bullying, you'll get killed. People will call you with mediocre highs thinking/hoping you've got low and are trying to push them off. In a high only game, they have to calculate maybe you have a hand, but in PL08, they can delude themselves with wishful thinking and call big bets against monster hands hoping you're going in the other direction only.

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But, there's another problem I don't think you are pointing out. We just had this in the KK23 example from a post earlier. I find that when I screw up, it is because I think I have a GREAT 2 way hand, and in fact a have a no where hand, getting sliced and diced by the nut low and hight.

Just a thought.

[Wolffink]

I play Holdem but in that game, maniacs can be a real problem. You always see articles "How to Play When a Maniac is in the Game" for Holdem.

It's even worse if it's a player switching gears. If you get raised on the turn, how many winning hands have you folded to someone who might be in a "5 minute maniac mode"?

I was playing Razz last night and with a board of (2-3)-8-7-T-5 faced something like a: 5-8-T-T. I bet, he raises. Since the best he has is a T-low, I raise. He re-raises all-in. He doesn't draw out. The raise by him was a stupid play because I had a board lock. Even if he draws out to his eight, I still might win.

Razz, even more so than PL08 in some situations, punishes people who play too aggressively, who bully, who bluff too much, and who call too much. Bad play is obvious in Razz. It's not obvious in Holdem because you can't see their hole cards. They could *always* have trips even if the board is totally rainbow and innocent-looking. A pair isn't easy to make and when I do make Top-pair, it's also easily beaten. There's a NL quandry that you may bet your top pair, top kicker, but on the river, if you're re-raised all-in by a semi-maniac---it's still a tough call to make.

Phil Helmuth tells a story of playing Holdem, low limits for him, I think it was like $10/$20 and raising every hand, every card and betting , that at some point in the night he'd be up $1000. He was. If someone tried that in PL08, I'm hoping I can get a hand before someone else does and take his stack away from him.

The Steve Badger site has the well-known quote that PL08 between good players is incredibly boring. The Ray Zee book says that in PL08, bad players get cut up much too quick. In 7 stud, bad players can chase. In Holdem, they can play crazy and still have good nights. In fact, crazy-aggressive is a pain in Holdem to play against since you're rarely holding the nuts to confidently take them down.

[kurto]

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The Ray Zee book says that in PL08, bad players get cut up much too quick. In 7 stud, bad players can chase. In Holdem, they can play crazy and still have good nights. In fact, crazy-aggressive is a pain in Holdem to play against since you're rarely holding the nuts to confidently take them down.

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I believe bad players do alright at the PL08 tables because of the schooling effect. Also, because the starting hands are much closer together then in Holdem, players who have absolute junk preflop hit enough to reward their bad play.

I see bad players making very aggressive bets with very poor hands who win huge pots because their opponents are also equally bad. I'm talking about people calling huge bets with midpair and no redraws with 2 people betting in front of them calling down... and winning.

What I think happens, though, is with the schooling effect, a good player at a table of fishy calling stations is going to lose a lot of pots because the opponents have every out covered.

That is... If you're at a table where 5 people call you down, each player might have only 5 or 6 outs as opposed to Hero's 14 outs.... but if they all call, Hero is a favorite over any individual but will still lose the majority of the times he plays. Obviously in the long run, the Hero should be ahead. But in the short run... the hero can get killed.

Point being... in the above scenario, the bad players will win (and see each other take down pots) enough times to not feel they're getting 'cut up too quickly.'

Sorry if this is somewhat rambly. I'm writing on a deadline.

[willmay3]

Kurto,

I don't disagree that there is some schooling effect going on.

But, I'm almost willing to claim (though not entirely so) that playing against the brain-damaged competition that you play at definitely the $200 and lower, but maybe the $400 and lower buy-ins, that you could wait until you have lock low AND counterfeit protection AND a draw to or the current nut high - put in a pot sized bet on the flop, turn, and river and get 2-4 callers at every stage at least 3 times a night playing 6 hours.

You only have to then scoop 1 pot, split 2 or 3/4 it, and you have won two buy in's per night with absolutely NO risk to your bankroll.

[Ironman]

I agree completely.

I'm willing to lay down very big drawing hands when I have very little money in the pot because I know there will be situations during my session where I am way ahead.

Dave