Could I have extracted more bets?

[JasonM]

SH 25-50 hand from a while ago.

I get A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in MP, folded to me and I raise, folded around to big blind who 3 bets (the only way to describe the big blind is a maniac), I call. Heads up for 3 small bets each.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Big blind checks, I check.

Turn is a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Big blind checks again, I bet, now he check raises me, I 3 bet, he caps.

River is a 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I cap.
My hand is good.

My question is, could I have gotten any more bets out of him or did I get the maximum? The only hand I could possibly put him on is AQ so my thinking is that he was willing to cap the whole way.

[crockpot]

good question. in theory, a rational player can only have three hands here: AQ, QQ or KK. with the kings he would naturally be scared of the ace, and with the others he would slowplay. just about anything else would bet either for value or as a bluff.

i'd bet the flop. i wouldn't expect him to fold anything, and he may be slowplaying, in which case i will just cost myself bets by checking (unless he has QQ). if my opponent is a strong player, checking the flop and then getting aggressive will look suspicious to him anyway.

[elindauer]

I think it's fine. There are what, two cards left in the deck that your opponent can hold, and he has at best one out? Show a little weakness. Maybe he'll catch a gutshot and make a straight or something. Your check behind his PF 3-bet doesn't look too suspicious, IMO. Now when you raise the turn, he might think you're bluffing him because of his flop check... you could get all kinds of action out of somebody with nothing.

my 2 cents.

[elysium]

hi jason
if you've been doing some stealing here and there, the check-down on the flop is o.k. why?

when you check it down, it looks like you're not going to take a stab at it because you've recently been caught or you're currently suspected of recently having stolen. not plu-perfect, but you get the point. you check it down like this on the flop when your opponents think you've been bluffing them off their hands. why?

well, it's a little complicated, and something that i've only recently found out. you see, when your opponents suspect that your stealing, and you check down a flopped monster, they will then think that you would have stolen this one too had you not stolen so many past pots. the check-down looks like you're afraid that you'll get called if you try and steal.

now watch. and listen. on the turn, the trip Q's say, 'i will not call if you steal.' the MP says, 'i'm stealing.' then of course, the EP says, 'aha, i caught you!'. and then the LP says, 'i'm going to break-out', etc., etc.

for this play to work, the LP must be suspected of stealing. then, the LP simply induces the EP to induce him into making a steal bet. it also helps the LP if he is betting out a lot with the goods and stealing by betting out. and the LP must be perceived as a possible bluffer. when does play reach this level? in other words, when can you begin to think at this level?

well, i take lessons from ulysses a lot. and i asked him one day why he sometimes checked down the flop with strong made hands. ulysses said he did it so that when he needs a free-card on the flop, he can get one. furthermore, he said that it keeps his opponents from taking shots at him the next time he checks it down. now, these are also reasons to check it down from LP. but in actual play, we are more focused on the 'hand at hand', and also, since the more control we have over the table, the quicker opponents bust out, we are more concerned about the opponents at the table right now, not in some future hand, although yes, your over-all play should be geared toward creating an image for the thousands of opponents you face over the course of a month say. but that's something toward our total game and style, not a finite area like, 'i sometimes check it down to get a free-card in the future.'. you don't get free-cards like that.

so, what ulysses said stuck in my mind, but i never thought of ever checking down a monster on the flop to get a free-card or to keep opponents from taking shots at me in some future hand. but, inducing my opponent to induce me into stealing when my opponent thinks that i'm stealing a lot, now that did click. and suddenly i realized that ulysses was making a trojan horse check-down.

remember, you need to be suspected of doing a lot of stealing, and your opponent must think that you know he knows you're stealing, and will call you. and since he thinks that you think that he will call, but you check it down and miss picking up a certain call of your bet, your check-down is the trojan horse. and of course, your opponent thinks you need more encouragement to steal, and checks it to you. if, on the other hand, he bets into you afraid that he will miss a bet, now you should call because, in my opinion, if you raise he will fear that you slow-played a monster. he must check it to you on the turn.

if you were doing some stealing in this game, or suspected of having stolen a few, then you played it great. also notice that your opponent thinks he is ahead of you, and doesn't see the slow-play because you concealed inside the trojan horse.