Flush Draw Out of Position

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I would usually check-raise the flop and bet the turn.

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Are you doing this trying to get him to fold? If so, how often does this type of semibluff work against a 5/10 unknown?

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Often enough at 3/6. I'm new at 5-10 but hoping same principles apply.

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Often enough at 5-10 aswell.

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Thanks for the responces. (I'm assuming the answer to my initial question was yes -- that is obviously the implication.) I should try to incorporate this line too against my more aggressive (better) 2/4 and 3/6 opponents. I usually employ a check call line until I hit, where I often check raise. I guess I'm so used to facing the calling stations that I don't bother with lines like this (which would just be spewage).

[ElAnimal]

Stupid question: how does your line change if the flop comes

6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Does check-raising become all bad?

[jackdaniels]

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Stupid question: how does your line change if the flop comes

6c 4c As

?

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It doesn't. I'm guessing that if I take the aggressive line the flop is being capped, so I c/c the turn and fold the river UI. Passive line gets me to the same place for fewer bets.

Check-raise is the pretty obvious standard "2+2" play. If I'm in villian's position, I would easily put you on that kind of flush draw. I also would start raising you like crazy because I know you are semibluffing. My reasoning is that a check-raise gives away your hand and will end up costing you more to draw, whereas check-calling is cheaper.
I like a check-call here.

I know, everyone hates check-calling... but sometimes it can be the right play.

[bobbyi]

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Are you doing this trying to get him to fold?

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Yeah. Check-raising the flop costs you very little. For example, even if you run into Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], you have 12 outs twice (plus some remote backdoor straights), so putting in extra money on the flop doesn't hurt you much even if you get three-bet. You were going to check-call the turn anyway, so it is better to bet yourself since a lot of people aren't going to raise you there and you have some folding equity.

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If so, how often does this type of semibluff work against a 5/10 unknown?

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Dunno, I haven't played 5/10 full in a long time.

[stillbr]

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Check-raise is the pretty obvious standard "2+2" play. If I'm in villian's position, I would easily put you on that kind of flush draw. I also would start raising you like crazy because I know you are semibluffing. My reasoning is that a check-raise gives away your hand and will end up costing you more to draw, whereas check-calling is cheaper.
I like a check-call here.

I know, everyone hates check-calling... but sometimes it can be the right play.

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Its not the right play this time. He didnt say it was against a known 2+2er, or a good thinking player. I play totally different when I'm playing against a good TAG vs. an average or unknown player. And check raising the flop against a good player is still correct with a draw as long as he is paying attention and you play a big Ace the same way.

I have to agree with Igninok here and say that check-raising is a donk play. Put yourself in Villian's shoes for a minute. What do you raise preflop with, just call a 3-bet, and then check-raise the flop with. I would say that check-raising this flop gives your draw away a good percentage of the time.

Many of you say that even if you are 3-bet or beat at the minute, your still not in bad shape. Okay, if I'm Villian and I put you on a flush draw, I'm not going to pay you off when the flush comes. So in the end, it really comes down to what cards come out. You are not getting paid if your draw comes, but you are committing more money than you have to in order to try and make you draw. If I'm Villian and I have a hand between AA-TT or even a set, I'm going to call your check-raise and then pump any non-club turn up when you donk into me.

Check-calling is easily the best option here. If you hit the turn, check-raise Villian. If you hit the river, lead. Simple as that.

[ncboiler]

I think raising the flop makes this easier to play. Check fold the river. No need to make a play at this.

[Frogic]

I think people are underestimating the deception value of check raising in these situations. The fold equity is nice, and its definitely a factor. On the other hand I'm checkraising on flops I think I'm ahead with too, so it makes it harder to put me on a hand. If you only checkraise when you have it, and check/callx2 when you have a draw its VERY easy to know what you have, which makes it easier for your opponents to play against you, less mistakes/less money.

Frogic