OOP - Is this a WA/WB situation?

[davelin]

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No reads, this was my first hand at the table - yeah I have trouble with these hands.

Sometimes when I get top pair garbage kicker OOP, I check the flop, if checked around then I have confidence to bet the turn and see what develops at the river. But I really need to work on having a good line(s) for these situations.

Thanks again!

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J kicker isn't garbage. Not betting this flop is a clear mistake IMO.

[Fryguy]

This is tough, because that 6 probably doesn't help anybody, yet betting the turn after betting the flop is going to make you look weak when you check the river. The K coming out is a pretty bad card, so I think you need to check here even though it's leaving the door open for a bet.

I would bet this flop, call a raise, bet the turn and probably call a raise, and check/call the river unless it wasn't raised in either of the previous rounds, and even still I would probably check/call.

[ArturiusX]

Not even close to WA/WB. WA/WB happens when you can isolate your opponent down to 3-4 hands that he would play (almost always when he caps preflop), and you're ahead of 2 of those hands and behind 2 others, only drawing to 2 outs vs him, hence WA/WB.

This is a strong position, you should 3-bet the flop. Qx will probably raise here, as well as middle pairs. Don't give your opponents credit just yet. If he caps, call down. If he just calls your 3-bet, lead again.

[pyedog]

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Oops terribly sorry! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I had QJo (suits irrelevant) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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It's not HU, you're not WA. Bad time to use the line.

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It is HU by the time the flop action gets back to Hero. I guess you're not WA because the flop raiser could have J9 or KJ for an OESD, as well as any king or any ace (say with another pair) to outdraw your top pair.

However against an unknown I'd say this flop raise indicates a fair bit of strength so I wouldn't 3-bet the flop. Betting out on the safe turn card is a decent option, and then if you are raised it is pretty likely that you are beaten but you will probably need to call down against an unknown.

I think that your line is a reasonable one against an unknown and I would have played it the same (although I can see some people saying it's too passive). I would have bet out on the river barring a K or an A falling (similar to the OOP WA/WB line).

[pyedog]

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Not even close to WA/WB. WA/WB happens when you can isolate your opponent down to 3-4 hands that he would play (almost always when he caps preflop), and you're ahead of 2 of those hands and behind 2 others, only drawing to 2 outs vs him, hence WA/WB.

This is a strong position, you should 3-bet the flop. Qx will probably raise here, as well as middle pairs. Don't give your opponents credit just yet. If he caps, call down. If he just calls your 3-bet, lead again.

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Yeah I thought that my advice was too passive. I guess I need to stop giving every unknown flop raiser credit for two pair or better.

Hey Arturius would you suggest the same aggressive line against a fairly conservative opponent with a post flop aggression of 1.5 or less? I would speculate that this kind of player would be too passive to raise with less than TPTK on the flop here. Against this sort of player I would just call down unless I improved. Against an even more passive player (AF<1) I could see an argument being made for folding the river when he bets after the K falls (although I wouldn't be able to fold the river myself).

[Roadstar]

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Not even close to WA/WB. WA/WB happens when you can isolate your opponent down to 3-4 hands that he would play (almost always when he caps preflop), and you're ahead of 2 of those hands and behind 2 others, only drawing to 2 outs vs him, hence WA/WB.

This is a strong position, you should 3-bet the flop. Qx will probably raise here, as well as middle pairs. Don't give your opponents credit just yet. If he caps, call down. If he just calls your 3-bet, lead again.

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With the 3 bet line, you'd bet the turn and river I guess? if raised on turn, do you fold, call and fold river UI? If raised on river, make crying call?

Thanks