Keeping the Initiative (Stars 100 hand)

[Big Dave D]

This is a surprisingly interesting thread.

I think Bluff, in his usual bluff manner, is right. He has given the caveat that play the rag QQ if you play much better postflop or foes are weak after all.

He is also right about the bigger games. The hand in question, not some abstract 150-200 hand sample, is far more interesting. Look at the dilema the hero has, and he is facing comparatively smaller stacks. If everyone was really stacked he would be in a right mess. And if he bet that amount at me on the turn then I would call or raise with a wide range of hands, some of which he would be beating. The point is, he is now in a tough decision point...and he doesnt know what to do. QED.

FWIW I probably check and try and get a price. But I also check the nuts there a bit too, especially on Party. And I also play high rag pairs OOP too, in middle limit at least.

gl

dd

[TheRempel]

I will definitely concede that he is right on big raggy pairs being marginal hands, especially OOP. Most hands excluding AA are fairly marginal.

I don't understand why everyone is so against having to make tough decisions. Every one of these decision you are forced to make will add a weapon to your arsenal that you can use later on against that same opponent and others.

As for the play of the particular hand in question, I think I would generally go for a cr on the flop as the OP said he might do, since there is no big wrap draw here, the best possible straight draw would be something like KT9x. Even a tight player post flop is likely to make some kind of bet here with one of those hands.

If the PFR bets only 1/2 pot, he will be able to make it $25 to go, forcing his opponents to commit a healthy portion of their stack to see one card. If they both call then you can likely check the turn if they are decent since that ten will have hit their range. If one calls a check might be in order if he is likely to check behind with a straight, or a smallish blocking bet if they like to make the mistake of giving 'free' cards.

[BluffTHIS!]

Rempel,

I don't mind making tough decisions at all because I am confident in my ability to make good ones. However the more such situations you put yourself in, the more likely it is to decide wrong. A good example of this is in cases where you flop a set but are actually a dog to an extremely strong draw held by one player, or to the field. Playing better sidecards gives you greater equity by allowing you to have enough outs to redraw when a bad turn card comes, and also by lessening a drawing hand's equity because you are holding some of its needed outs. Plus the positional aspect of this particular hand is important. The weaker your starting hand, the better position you need to play it, because there will be so many bad cards that could come, and position often allows you to check behind and avoid being bluffed off the best hand or being value bet thin by a non-nut hand that beats you where you might be tempted to call.

[BluffTHIS!]

I bumped this thread to let you all know if you haven't already seen it, that Rolf has an article in the current issue of Cardplayer discussing playing rag KK hands, similar to the QQ one discussed here.

[joewatch]

I like Rolf's article as it will definitely affect how I look at raggedy big pairs in the future.

However, one thing that I think was missed in the discussion of the original post was that Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is not completely ragged. You have a suited Queen as backup/blockers and the 4-2 can flop the nut str8 with flush redraw, or can act as blockers with a flop like Q53 vs somebody with a low wrap like A642.

This hand is very much like the Ks Kh 8s 6d hand Rolf talks about in his article, "What to look for in starting hands Part II: Pot Limit Omaha".

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... this hand is playable in any position and for any reasonable amount- even though it's not necessarily good enough to reraise with.


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[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]


Nonetheless, if your better opponents are playing 4 cards working together and you are not, then you are effectively playing handicapped in the game.

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I'm just a confused beginner and dabbler in the higher limit PLO games, but my impression so far is that the way to big success is in being able to steal a lot and provoke people to play back at you when you do have a hand. If you're folding 80% of your hands pf and then only continuing when you hit the flop and have a redraw, you will never get any action on the 1 out 300 hands you actually do want to show down. QQxx seems to me like bread and butter in juicy lag 5-10 games. As long as you hvae the nerve to steal enough and build up a crazy image (which I don't for that much money).

but this is all speculation--I definitely don't hvae a track record in 5-10 or feel confident that I can own it.