When is passive play right?

#1 12-09-2005, 03:31 PM

First post, long time reader (thanks to all who do post).

I'm a 15.5/7.5/3.8 player over the last ~20k hands, so don't think aggression is a problem for me. Preflop is obviously weak, but what do think about the line from the flop on? I've only seen villain for one rotation; no reads.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Meh. Whatever.

Flop: (3 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

There's no way I'm folding here, but a bet doesn't seem right either. If I bet and he has it, I lose more money than just calling. If I bet and he doesn't have it, he folds and I make nothing.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (4.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

#2 12-09-2005, 03:39 PM

Passive play works great in solitaire, not here.

This would have played out a helluva lot different had you raised pre-flop and either checkraised the flop or bet out on the flop.

#3 12-09-2005, 03:49 PM

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There's no way I'm folding here, but a bet doesn't seem right either. If I bet and he has it, I lose more money than just calling. If I bet and he doesn't have it, he folds and I make nothing.

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if by it you mean the flush, no. If you bet and he has only a club, there's a very good chance he's calling and drawing almost dead. If he has just a pair, same. If he has a pair and a club, he's drawing to 4 outs and there's a good chance he'll raise. If he has the straight draw he's drawing to four outs, if he has a gutshot and a club he's drawing to 3 outs. In all of these situations, he is going to think his hand is much better than it is because it is unlikely you have him outpaired and outclubbed. I think you are way underestimating the value of your hand.

I don't have a problem with preflop, btw. I think letting a random hand in with AA is often better than giving away the fact that you hold a premium hand, so unless you're often isolating from the SB ...

#4 12-09-2005, 03:58 PM

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I don't have a problem with preflop, btw. I think letting a random hand in with AA is often better than giving away the fact that you hold a premium hand,

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You're obviously not raising enough pre-flop.

This is flawed reasoning at this level, IMO. You are are losing out of pre-flop equity by limping this. And not every hand that you should or could be raising would be considered a "premium hand", anyway.

#5 12-09-2005, 04:08 PM

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Passive play works great in solitaire, not here.

This would have played out a helluva lot different had you raised pre-flop and either checkraised the flop or bet out on the flop.

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I disagree with any blanket statements about passive play. There are times when playing a hand aggressively (even a fairly strong hand) is the wrong play. The question is: what's the best way to make the most when I'm ahead, and lose the least when I'm behind?

#6 12-09-2005, 04:11 PM

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I think you are way underestimating the value of your hand.

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No I'm not. I know MHIG here quite often. That's not the point. If I raise with the best hand, I win very little (he's bluffing and he folds). If I raise with a worse hand, I lose more than calling down.

#7 12-09-2005, 04:16 PM

Passive play is pretty much never right...

Raise preflop. Too many people try to get cute to hide their hands and they don't get the maximum out of their hands. The thing is, at lower limits, the majority of players are not making reads on you, keeping notes on you, etc. They will not recognize plays by you, so straight forward play will work better.

Bet out the flop. How is folding even a question in your head? You have top pair with the nut flush draw. You are not losing to many hands right now, and you have redraws to vastly improve your hand. How can you really put anyone on a flopped flush or straight here? Even if you did, you'd be right to keep going with your hand. Raise and reraise.

I'd bet/call the turn, with the expectation of check/folding if I am raised and I don't improve on the river. You still have redraw outs if someone has the straight. A raise will also let you see if someone is likely to have you beat.

If just called on the turn, I'm a little hazy on the river. Not sure what's better, check/call or bet/fold.

#8 12-09-2005, 04:20 PM

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If I raise with the best hand, I win very little (he's bluffing and he folds.

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You can't look at it that way. If you play passively, you allow weak draws that might call down without the necessary pot odds to see cheap turns and rivers. PROTECT YOUR HAND! Even if it means only winning a small pot here and there, it is better than letting someone with J-4 see the flop for one bet and see the turn for one bet letting them hit their gutshot on you. Make them pay for their weak draws. In the long run, that dead money will be your money.

#9 12-09-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Passive play works great in solitaire, not here.

This would have played out a helluva lot different had you raised pre-flop and either checkraised the flop or bet out on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with any blanket statements about passive play. There are times when playing a hand aggressively (even a fairly strong hand) is the wrong play. The question is: what's the best way to make the most when I'm ahead, and lose the least when I'm behind?

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You have much to learn.

Don't confuse passive play with slowplay.

#10 12-09-2005, 04:29 PM

I don't think as many hands will fold on your bet as you think. As mentioned, anyone who has a club draw will stay for a bet and a club draw that paired the board most likely will raise your bet (which could be scary for you because you don't know they are on a draw)