Math, Logic, and Ideology

[Andrew Fletcher]

This thread is great on so many levels.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Review the history of France for the 100 years after the revolution.

[/ QUOTE ] Wot, again? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
If your definition of success is overthrowing a monarchy, then you can call it a success.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, that - and a number of other accomplishments, a bit more ...long-term.

Do you really wanna bother your pizza digestion with 'em?

[Beer and Pizza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your definition of success is overthrowing a monarchy, then you can call it a success.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, that - and a number of other accomplishments, a bit more ...long-term.



[/ QUOTE ]

Well the monarchy came back several times.

The real success of the revolution was the guillotine. Now that is a true symbol of France [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
So because the French revolution failed, you believe that liberty, equality, and fraternity are bad values?

[/ QUOTE ]

While these may have been the stated goals of the French Revolution, we can tell from observation of what took place that liberty was not a true motivation of the revolutionaries.

[The once and future king]

Actualy conservatism in its classical sense emerged as a reactonary force against the ideals coming out of the French revolution.

Conservatisms classical ideological basis is the idea that humans are inherently flawed and will allways need a strong source of power and authority to keep them in line and behaving properly.

[cardcounter0]

That would be 5 levels, right?

[Andrew Fletcher]

No, I'm open to other ideas about how many levels there are.

[BadBoyBenny]

I agree with your point that changing a position should not be categorically dismissed as weakness, as it typically is in recent US politics. Obviously there are limits to this and IMO, a lot of what you see is a reaction to the impression Clinton did not have any principles. I think in the next 5 years or so you will see something quite the opposite as people will have an impression that inflexibility has been one of Bush's bigger weaknesses.

I think your math analogy is a poor way to get the point across. Equating conservatives to someone who answers 5 to every question is silly and belittling. Besides conservatives can always reply that their principles are more analogous to the following ones.
<ul type="square"> [*]A straight line segment can be extended indefinitely in a straight line[*]All right angles are congruent.[*]If two lines are drawn which intersect a third in such a way that the sum of the inner angles on one side is less than two right angles, then the two lines inevitably must intersect each other on that side if extended far enough[*]If equals are added to equals, then the sums are equal.[*]Things which equal the same thing are equal to one another.[/list]
It is notable that there has been a big shift as Liberals used to be seen as the idealists and Conservatives seen as more pragmatic. That has flipped pretty dramatically in the last 4 years or so.

[cardcounter0]

No! The answer is 5, you weak flip-flopping liberal!

[QuadsOverQuads]

[ QUOTE ]
What did you expect? If you mention France, even in an offhanded way, conservatives just go off. It's like a red flag for a bull, or like poking a dog in the butt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's be more specific : it is a Pavlovian response that is the direct result of a campaign of intentional psychological conditioning. Right wing propaganda is specifically designed to induce these responses in its audience, and these responses are reinforced aggressively by the entire Movement.

And it's nothing new. They've been using this same conditioning tactic to suppress rational debate within their movement for literally decades. It is calculated, it is intentional, and it is (sadly) effective.

"Jane Fonda!"
*bark!bark!bark!bark!*

"Hillary Clinton!"
*bark!bark!bark!bark!*

"evolution!"
*bark!bark!bark!bark!*

"France!"
*bark!bark!bark!bark!*

This is how irrationalist/fascistic movements maintain their coherency and discipline. Watch for it in action on an AM Radio station near you.


q/q

(PS: and because of this, their answer WILL always be "five", because in the absence of functional reason they have to fall back on imperatives and absolutes handed down to them from Some Higher Authority).