Waiting for turn - 2 examples

#1 10-24-2005, 12:46 PM

Can someone please tell me if I mis-played these 2 hands where I waited until the turn to raise rather than on the flop. Should I have been more straight forward & just raise up the flop? In the first example I figured a flop raise wouldn't push out any flush draws so a turn-raise would be more effective at hand protection. For the second hand, I didnt forsee any hands catching up to my set so the flop slow-play was more out of greed since I had so much action behind me.

Btw, these were both from the same table. Only big read I had was that the player on my immediate right - UTG+1 in hand 1 and CO in hand 2 was a complete 'tard. I've seen him raise 4th & 5th st. after peeling midle or bottom pair ... i [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] PP beginner tables

Hand 1:
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Hand 2:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (23.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG raises, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 31.50 BB

MrWookie47 · #2 10-24-2005, 01:16 PM

These are both flop raises. Both of these hands have large equity edges, and you want to exploit that while you have the whole field trapped and ready to pay you more money.

bozlax · #3 10-24-2005, 01:20 PM

On Hand 1 I agree. The bet on the flop came from EP, and there were 2 callers before it got to our Hero...plus the pot was already large.

On Hand 2, the bet came from his immediate right, so rather than trapping the entire field he'd be facing the entire field with 2. And the pot was small when the flop came to him. I don't hate waiting, here.

bozlax · #4 10-24-2005, 01:22 PM

You should have raised the flop in Hand 1. Hand 2 looks ok to me, on the flop.

Both of these hands deserve a river raise and call of a 3-bet, however, IMO.

MrWookie47 · #5 10-24-2005, 01:23 PM

Yeah, the board is pretty drawless, but you're likely just going to be facing the field with two BB cold on the turn, rather than 2 SB cold on the flop. Eh, I guess the pot was small. I can see waiting.

sean c · #6 10-24-2005, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On Hand 1 I agree. The bet on the flop came from EP, and there were 2 callers before it got to our Hero...plus the pot was already large.

On Hand 2, the bet came from his immediate right, so rather than trapping the entire field he'd be facing the entire field with 2. And the pot was small when the flop came to him. I don't hate waiting, here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree i probably wait for the turn in hand #2. Then again if everyone else knows the lagtard is betting with anything here and you have an aggressive image raising isn't bad your likely to get some cold calls at this type of table.

MrWookie47 · #7 10-24-2005, 01:26 PM

I don't think I can bring myself to 3bet the river in hand 2. UTG just c/r'd an entire field of overcallers when a flush card fall after a tremendous amount of turn action. Unless he's a pretty stupid lag, he has the flush here a huge percentage of the time. I call, and pray to see K6.

SocialWelfareIV · #8 10-24-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
These are both flop raises. Both of these hands have large equity edges, and you want to exploit that while you have the whole field trapped and ready to pay you more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole field is not trapped in hand 2. There are three players that have yet to put a bet into the pot on the flop. I like calling here if they'll call one but not two with weak holdings.

Since villains are calling two cold on the turn, they'd probably call two on the flop so a raise would've been better.

Hand 1 is an easy raise on the flop. I'm not a fan of the three bet on the turn.

#9 10-24-2005, 01:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are both flop raises. Both of these hands have large equity edges, and you want to exploit that while you have the whole field trapped and ready to pay you more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole field is not trapped in hand 2. There are three players that have yet to put a bet into the pot on the flop. I like calling here if they'll call one but not two with weak holdings.

Since villains are calling two cold on the turn, they'd probably call two on the flop so a raise would've been better.

Hand 1 is an easy raise on the flop. I'm not a fan of the three bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

For hand 1, with a draw-heavy board I am having trouble understanding when something is an easy flop raise vs. waiting until the turn (a la Ed Miller) ... maybe I am misunderstanding that concept from SSHE ...

bozlax · #10 10-24-2005, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I can bring myself to 3bet the river in hand 2. UTG just c/r'd an entire field of overcallers when a flush card fall after a tremendous amount of turn action. Unless he's a pretty stupid lag, he has the flush here a huge percentage of the time. I call, and pray to see K6.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't recommending calling/3-betting...I was recommending raising and then calling the 3-bet. I agree with the possible flush read; you're not folding a made flush, obviously, but I'm not sure I see a flush in this hand the way it was played. I was looking more at the possibility of folding a weak two-pair, etc, when the king falls.