J9s....standard?

Harv72b · #1 03-13-2005, 01:00 AM

Not a preflop call that I normally make here, but I'm experimenting a little & figured with 2 limpers in front this was a good spot to expand my preflop horizons. I'm also still getting used to having added a third table, so assume no reads (because I wasn't using them anyway).

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (12.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero folds....

Painfully standard? PF call alright?

GrunchCan · #2 03-13-2005, 01:50 AM

I wouldn't make the PF call in that position. But I understand the value of experimentation.

Who is UTG? In order for this raise to be correct, there needs to be a reasonable chance that your hand is best on the flop.

beachbum · #3 03-13-2005, 01:54 AM

PF call is fine, IMO. However it helps to have a table read, even if you don't have individual reads (which obviously help too). How often is it getting raised PF? If its less than 10 or 15% I'll play this hand here almost every time.

The flop raise is ok. Calling is your worst option. Raise or fold. However, if I don't have a read on the flop bettor it makes the hand that much harder. Will he be this aggressive with a flush draw? On the flop, it smells like a set or somthing like K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Turn is good. After being 3 bet on the flop, with his range of holdings I don't like capping the turn.

Dude you've gotta call the river. He's got a non-King flush draw and betting here more often than 1 in 13.5 times.

beachbum · #4 03-13-2005, 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In order for this raise to be correct, there needs to be a reasonable chance that your hand is best on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. You also have to factor how likely he is to get a free card and/or his ability to take control of the hand. Could the villain fold A9?

Harv72b · #5 03-13-2005, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PF call is fine, IMO. However it helps to have a table read, even if you don't have individual reads (which obviously help too). How often is it getting raised PF? If its less than 10 or 15% I'll play this hand here almost every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

The table in general was completely ordinary...about 30% VPIP, PFR somewhere in the 7-8 range. It wasn't hardly passive preflop, but it was far from being overly aggressive.

[ QUOTE ]
Dude you've gotta call the river. He's got a non-King flush draw and betting here more often than 1 in 13.5 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just couldn't imagine anyone 3-betting the flop and turn without at least top pair. I know there are a fair amount of 'tards on Party who will go crazy with a flush draw, but man...I just couldn't fathom being ahead at that point.

FWIW, villian claimed to have the straight...his later play confirmed that he would indeed have 3-bet the flop with a gutshot.

GrunchCan · #6 03-13-2005, 02:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In order for this raise to be correct, there needs to be a reasonable chance that your hand is best on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. You also have to factor how likely he is to get a free card and/or his ability to take control of the hand. Could the villain fold A9?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be clear, I'm not advocating calling instead of raising. I agree this is raise or fold territory.

But weather or not we should even continue with the hand depends on how many outs we have if we are behind, or the chance that we are ahead. If the opponent is not likely to bet anything less than TP, we are drawing to 5 or 2 outs and shouold probably fold. On the other hand, if the opponent will bet with a wider variety of hands - including the possibility that he will bet the flop 100% of the time when he rasied PF - then we are drawing to more outs, possibly even ahead.

But the key to making this decision is what the opponent is likely to be betting. If he will bet something other than TP, hero should rasie. If he'll only bet TP or better, hero should fold.

By the way, I'm never going for a free card in this spot. If I get control of the flop (eg, villan just calls my 2-bet), I will bet the turn no matter what comes and then check the river UI. I don't want to check the turn and then have to make an ugly decision on the river if I'm bet in to and haven't improved.

beachbum · #7 03-13-2005, 02:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, villian claimed to have the straight...his later play confirmed that he would indeed have 3-bet the flop with a gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he'd 3 bet the flop with a gutshot, he'd be even that much more likely to 3 bet the flop with a flush draw.

Harv72b · #8 03-13-2005, 02:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But weather or not we should even continue with the hand depends on how many outs we have if we are behind, or the chance that we are ahead. If the opponent is not likely to bet anything less than TP, we are drawing to 5 or 2 outs and shouold probably fold. On the other hand, if the opponent will bet with a wider variety of hands - including the possibility that he will bet the flop 100% of the time when he rasied PF - then we are drawing to more outs, possibly even ahead.

But the key to making this decision is what the opponent is likely to be betting. If he will bet something other than TP, hero should rasie. If he'll only bet TP or better, hero should fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a play I've been trying to incorporate more into my game...if someone bets into me on a 2-suited flop where I have something other than top pair (or if I have TP, obviously), raising if I can face the rest of the field with 2 cold. My thinking being that...

-If he's betting the flush draw, I'm already ahead
-If he's betting top pair & I can get it HU, I probably have my full 5 outs.
-If he's betting a pair under the K, I should have good folding equity on the turn.

In this case, I had no read on the villian at the time of the hand, so I didn't know if he was the type to check anything less than TP. But if he was, that's probably a passive player who will go into calldown mode with "just" TP, getting me a cheap showdown at least.

ErrantNight · #9 03-13-2005, 03:30 AM

looks fine from here.

evilganz · #10 03-13-2005, 10:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Who is UTG? In order for this raise to be correct, there needs to be a reasonable chance that your hand is best on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? There are 8 small bets in the pot. Even if you knew he had a king, you're giving up almost nothing by raising, with 5 likely pseudo-nut outs and a backdoor flush draw. Folding has to be better; if you call someone with QT has an easy call. Now see how well you do when you buy your jack. The pot/implied odds + the chance that he has some hand like T9 or 98 has to make this a raise.