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#11
10-20-2005, 06:34 PM
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Re: On Phil (H)
[ QUOTE ]
I thought that was just a neat way of signing off as 'JJ'. Hellmuth, moreso than any other pro on TV, doesn't get involved in big preflop raising. Your appraisal of his style of play seems to come from watching 4 or 5 hands on TV. Lastly, you are an idiot. [/ QUOTE ] I have very little to say on this. Unless you have played with the guy live or have other non-television experiences watching Hellmuth extensively, then I, having watched most or all of the WSOP and WPT coverage, have seen the same amount of his play than you have (assuming you have also watched most of this coverage). And hence if my assessment of his play is meaningless and insignificant based on that, then also is yours. Assuming I am an idiot, you should be able to say why... -J 
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#12
10-20-2005, 06:44 PM
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Re: On Phil (H)
Barry Greenstein's analysis seems to indicate that Phil likes playing lots of smaller pots.
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#13
10-20-2005, 06:47 PM
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Re: On Phil (H)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I thought that was just a neat way of signing off as 'JJ'. Hellmuth, moreso than any other pro on TV, doesn't get involved in big preflop raising. Your appraisal of his style of play seems to come from watching 4 or 5 hands on TV. Lastly, you are an idiot. [/ QUOTE ] I have very little to say on this. Unless you have played with the guy live or have other non-television experiences watching Hellmuth extensively, then I, having watched most or all of the WSOP and WPT coverage, have seen the same amount of his play than you have (assuming you have also watched most of this coverage). And hence if my assessment of his play is meaningless and insignificant based on that, then also is yours. Assuming I am an idiot, you should be able to say why... -J [/ QUOTE ] Barry Greenstein seems to disagree w/ you: Phil may go down as the pioneer in a method of playing a lot of hands and making small bets and raises that keep opponents in the pot, the theory being that he will make better decisions than they do on subsequent streets. This strategy guarantees large fluctuations and has a lot to say for it against weak opposition. This method would not work as well in a cash game where there is no rush to build up a chip stack and by virtue of playing too many pots opponents can easily take the betting lead away. In a tournament, the extra fear of going busted can keep your opponents at bay and the bad players are confused by what looks like mass hysteria to them. but then again, I'm not sure if he's seen EVERY WPT AND WSOP EVENT ON TV like you have, so you may be more informed than he. edited: damn beat to the punch [ QUOTE ] Assuming I am an idiot, you should be able to say why... [/ QUOTE ] the lack of an enter key seems to be enough for me.
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#15
10-20-2005, 07:46 PM
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Re: On Phil (H)
[ QUOTE ]
With his skills (edge over his opponents), even playing AA preflop against a smaller pair for an all-in raise isnt worth it (4.5 to 1). [/ QUOTE ] I mean, so you're saying you think Phil should fold aces preflop?
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#16
10-20-2005, 08:05 PM
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Re: On Phil (H)
I literally just spoke to the guy. He's smart. People tell him he's brilliant - he probably is. I know he isn't that likeable! His book is on the NYT best seller list and he's worth a fortune. He's got a public face (tv, poker) and a home face (private - nice guy). Do you think he's more egocentic than you? Don't be dumb. He just acts like a damn petulant baby because he can!
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#17
10-20-2005, 08:08 PM
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Re: On Phil (H)
[/ QUOTE ] Why is 77 a bad hand to go all-in on against two overs when someone else holds it, yet 66 is okay when Phil goes all-in on it versus KK (vs Chan in the TOC). [/ QUOTE ] Terrible comparison
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#18
10-20-2005, 09:57 PM
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Re: On Phil (H)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] With his skills (edge over his opponents), even playing AA preflop against a smaller pair for an all-in raise isnt worth it (4.5 to 1). [/ QUOTE ] I mean, so you're saying you think Phil should fold aces preflop? [/ QUOTE ] No, I'm saying his edge in the game is too large to risk getting busted by going all-in preflop against equal or larger stacks, regardless of his hole cards. In regards to Barry Greenstein's low-down on Phil, his description of Phil's strategy would correlate to his tremendous ability to outplay opponents after the flop. This undoubtedly reflects his success in the past and speaks to exactly what I was talking about: Phil's game is in outplaying his opponents after the flop and his advantage thereafter is too great to get involved in big raising wars preflop. However, in the coverage of the main event this year, last year, and the year before, IT SEEMS TO ME, IN THE MAJORITY OF HANDS THAT THEY BROADCASTED, I dont necessarily see him doing that. I see him making big moves preflop. Here are a few examples: against Jason Lester in 2003 with QQ vs JJ Helmuth, rather than smooth call Lesters raise, reraised to set Lester all-in preflop. Against Tomer Benvenuti, Hellmuth had AK vs TT and Phil was all-in preflop, this year AQ vs QQ and AJ hellmuth made a huge raise with AQ big enough to set AJ all-in preflop, with AK vs KJ vs that donk this year Hellmuth reraised the AK, allowing KJ to go all-in preflop which Hellmuth had to call, and with AQ vs 77 Phil was all-in preflop. In all of these hands, we dont get to see any of the post-flop action because either Phil or his opponent are set all-in preflop. For example, with Phil's AK vs KJ this year, Phil could have smooth called the other guy's raise and then made a big bet on the flop, which would have forced KJ (no pair) to fold. Instead, Phil's raise allowed the other guy to move all-in preflop, which allowed him to get lucky on the river by spiking a jack. Also, when Jason Lester raised with JJ in 2003, Phil reraised enough to set him all-in, with QQ, rather than call his raise and try to out play him after the flop. Perhaps I'm wrong. But from what I see in the main event coverage, it seems to me that Phil is making big moves preflop with his hands, and responds to other player's aggression by getting more aggressive and seems to think he always has way the better of it. I mean AK vs TT is 50/50, but ask Phil and he'll tell you he had the best hand with his AK. AQ vs 77 is again 50/50, yet Phil called his opponent an idiot because he called Phil's all-in with a pocket pair. I suspect that idiot probably read Phil's top ten hand rankings, where he ranks 77 as a top ten hand. peace -J
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#20
10-20-2005, 10:15 PM
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Re: On Phil (H)
[ QUOTE ]
Many on these boards have played with him. I played with him for a good part of day 2 in the WSOP 2004. Soss and the others are correct. You are not. Regards, Woodguy [/ QUOTE ] What, that I posted, do you think is incorrect, exactly? -J
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