Restating the Paradox

ZeeJustin · #1 11-04-2005, 05:21 PM

Restating the Paradox

I realize there is already a free will thread, and an omniscience/omnipotence thread, but I think this is worthy of a new one. I don't think a logical refutation of this is possible.

Premise 1: God is Omnipotent and Omnicient.
Premise 2: God created humans.
Premise 3: Those humans have free will.

This logically does not follow. Here is why:

If God is omnipotent, he can create things. He can create an infinite number of things. Since he is also omnicient, how knows the exact result of creating each of those infinite possible creations. Let's say he chooses one of the possible creations to create. How can that creation possibly have free will if God knows exactly what it will do, and chose to create that specific being over an infinite number of other possible beings he could create? By choosing to create that being, he also chose it's fate, therefore it does not have free will.

#2 11-04-2005, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Restating the Paradox

How can that creation possibly have free will if God knows exactly what it will do, and chose to create that specific being over an infinite number of other possible beings he could create? By choosing to create that being, he also chose it's fate, therefore it does not have free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reasoning goes wrong here. What god does is create a being that will freely choose to do x. What god knows is that the being will freely choose to do x. The illusion of incompatibility comes in thinking that because god knows that the being will choose to do x, then the being *must* do x, but again, divine foreknowledge and free will are not incompatible.

All that is required for the being to have free will is for the being to have freely chosen to do x. This does mean that it must have been possible for the being to have chosen to do y instead, but that is not incompatible with god knowing that the being will choose to do x. Of course god cannot be wrong, and that is where the illusion of incompatibility comes in--since god cannot be wrong, how can it be possible for the being to choose y instead? But remember, what god knows is not that the being will do x because there is no other possibility, but that the being will choose to do x even though it was possible for the being to do y.

btw, it's "omniscient."

#3 11-04-2005, 06:07 PM

I just did a search at biblegateway.com for the word "omniscient" - I can't find it in the bible. Am I missing something? Why is God said to be imbued with the ability to see perfectly into the future. Couldn't it be that even a being that can create existence from nothing, still be bounded by certain physical laws? If not, wouldn't he be trapped by his own lack of free will? Or, couldn't he have initially possessed free will and then chosen to give it up for himself and the rest of the prescient beings in the universe?

#4 11-04-2005, 06:15 PM

please ignore my last sentence. I can see it makes no sense.

#5 11-04-2005, 06:50 PM

Hold up. Before you can start to argue whether or not there is a god, you have to define a god. What is the nature of god? What is it that it can/cannot do? Only positive concepts will do, i.e. things god CAN do. We cannot ask what it cannot do (negative definitions). This leads to a fallacy exemplified by St. Anselem, which defines god as "that which nothing greater can be conceived". To continue, this undefined god has to exist in reality, because if it exists only in your mind, you can conceive of something greater; a god that exists in reality, so in order to be the greatest thing that can be conceived, it has to actually exist.

Give me a list of traits and I will show you why they are all contradictory and prove nothing. And hopefully you will not still believe in a god that cannot exist in or out of reality.

#6 11-04-2005, 07:26 PM

I was just curious as to where premise #1 came from - that God is Omnipotent, etc. If what you're saying is that God is omnipotent because God is that which nothing greater can be conceived, then I for one can't conceive of anything close to perfect. Who can? This Anselm arguement for God doesn't make sense.

NotReady · #7 11-04-2005, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I realize there is already a free will thread

[/ QUOTE ]

Naturalism says we are entirely the result of causes operating according to fixed laws. Where is free will?

Evolution by chance says we are the product of randomness. If all we think and will is random, where is free will?

Free will is only possible for finite beings if God exists.

Borodog · #8 11-04-2005, 08:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Naturalism says we are entirely the result of causes operating according to fixed laws. Where is free will?

[/ QUOTE ]

A natural Universe operating according to fixed laws is not necessarily a deterministic Universe. Quantum Mechanics is a fundamentally non-deterministic science.

[ QUOTE ]
Evolution by chance says we are the product of randomness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Evolution doesn't procede randomly. Evolution procedes according to random variation and non-random selection.

[ QUOTE ]
If all we think and will is random, where is free will?

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this have to do with evolution? How did you get to "all we think and will is random" from the element of randomness involved in biological evolution? How does the evolution of mankind over the past x million years have anything to do with whether I choose waffles or pancakes for breakfast?

[ QUOTE ]
Free will is only possible for finite beings if God exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? What I mean is, what is physically different about a Universe where a Creator God exists that allows free will than a naturalistic Universe where no Creator God exists? And if there is no physical difference, how can free will exist in one and not the other?

NotReady · #9 11-04-2005, 09:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]

A natural Universe operating according to fixed laws is not necessarily a deterministic Universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how something that is in accordance with fixed laws isn't determined by those laws.

[ QUOTE ]

Evolution doesn't procede randomly. Evolution procedes according to random variation and non-random selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're saying evolution doesn't proceed randomly, it proceeds according to random variation. I don't see the difference.

[ QUOTE ]

How does the evolution of mankind over the past x million years have anything to do with whether I choose waffles or pancakes for breakfast?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your genes, which are determined by random variation, determine which you will choose.

[ QUOTE ]

What I mean is, what is physically different about a Universe where a Creator God exists that allows free will than a naturalistic Universe where no Creator God exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't a question of physical difference. If free will exists for man it is because God is in control and allows it. If there is no God, either fixed law reigns, so all is determined, or chance reigns, so all is accidental.

David Sklansky · #10 11-04-2005, 10:26 PM

You realize of course that after you die, God will show you posts like what you just wrote and say something like:

" Not Ready, I put you on the earth to talk about issues like this. But then you waste your talents and screw everything up by insisting that the nutcase Calvin with all his silly and often wrong minute details, needs to be followed. Thus putting off those who might otherwise have listened to you. Now go sit in the corner with BluffTHIS for three billion years.