Notebook of a Gamer: "Turtling"

[Xhad]

Hi LoginNameExists,

One thing I want to add; my OP is assuming that the competitive MTT player is trying to increase his EV in the tournament. My contention is that many "play to survive" players aren't even making it into the money with their strategy.

David Sklansky, TPFAP:

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...many tournament players go too far trying to move up the ladder. They actually lose EV with their strategy that places too much emphasis on surviving in hopes of finishing higher.

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My real point was that decreasing your chances of a near-future loss, and increasing your chances of winning (or EV in the tournament since they pay multiple places) are not the same thing. If they do happen to be the same thing then defensive play can be correct. Wellwisher, a recurring lifegain card, could be a terror in Magic limited games because it could gain so much life that the player using it couldn't lose. It actually affected the dynamics of the game because it could essentially say "kill me or you can't win." In a poker tournament, if you're near the bubble or in the money and you have a clear, specific reason to believe that playing temporarily weak-tight will increase your EV in the tournament, go for it. But if the tournament pays 200 places, don't play for 500th place.

Interesting post!

Chess has a similar “turtling” phenomenon. A new player starts playing, and soon gets fed up with getting checkmated in ten moves or less. In most cases, the new player then starts building little fortresses around his king. This strategy also ensures defeat against a better player because the better player has nothing to fear from his opponent’s purely defensive play. The better player can deploy his pieces at will and use any strategy he wants. Instead of getting checkmated in ten moves, the new player gets checkmated in forty moves. Eventually, players begin to appreciate the value of attack, defense through counterattack, and having the initiative (dictating the course and tempo of the game.) A good player will castle early to give his king some protection, but the king is given no additional protection unless it is necessary.

I am glad that you described this in poker terms. Maybe this is why pros are more willing to bust out of a tournament early than try to squeeze into the money with just a chip and a chair…a situation I usually find myself in when I play big tournaments. Thanks!

To continue the thought, if a good chess players is losing, he will often lash out at his opponent's king and sacrifice additional pieces in order to complicate matters. Doing so may offer him a small chance of getting back into the game. This is potentally better than simply defending, which gives him almost no chance to win or draw if the winning technique is clear. Most of the time, this just means a quicker loss, but it's the difference between a 10% chance of avoiding loss and a 1% chance.

As with a poker tournament, it's much better to pick a hand earlier to make a stand with if you're getting blinded to death. If you bust out, you bust out...but the chance of doubling up with a bigger stack makes it worth it.

ScottieK

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To the starcraft example: Expanding aggressively and focusing on 'turtling' with the Terrans isn't what the OP was takling about. The OP was talking about what I used to do, which was making sure that I had Toss Cannons on every square of map within there screens of my base.

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I don't think that is what OP meant. I'll agree with XHad, the prototypical turtler is the one makes his base impenatrable. With Terran, that is seige tanks behind those buildings where you can put 4 marines. With Toss, it's cannons. With Zerg, it's sunken and spore conolies.

What OP appeared to mean is that, while the newbie has made an impenatrable defense at home, he's allowed his opponent to expand to all the minerals and gas on the map. Eventually, the turtler will run out of resources and have to expand. The person who has already expanded is either already there or has a large resource advantage which he can use to prevent the expansion.

Building cannons all over the map is something you just don't see on Starcraft, except maybe on Big Game Hunters.

[Xhad]

Regarding the chess analogies: Yeah, this is exactly why I suck at chess. I can do a decent job of not losing by making clever play after clever play, but I lack the ability to see the game in such a way that I am able to create a plan for winning. So I end up turtling because I don't know what else to do.

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To continue the thought, if a good chess players is losing, he will often lash out at his opponent's king and sacrifice additional pieces in order to complicate matters. Doing so may offer him a small chance of getting back into the game. This is potentally better than simply defending, which gives him almost no chance to win or draw if the winning technique is clear. Most of the time, this just means a quicker loss, but it's the difference between a 10% chance of avoiding loss and a 1% chance.

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This is going a bit into a related concept of all games: the favorite prefers "usual" circumstances and low-variance, while the underdog prefers "unusual" circumstances and high-variance.

Interesting Magic example: Who's the Beatdown? That article probably doesn't make sense to people who don't play that particular game, but suffice it to say that the article can be summed up as saying, "Figure out whether your deck favors the long game, then from that decide whether to try to make the game go long (i.e. You're the favorite so reduce variance by giving your deck time to press its inherent advantages) or make the game go short (i.e. you're the underdog in the long run so make higher-volatility plays in hopes of cutting your opponent off before he is able to press the strength of his deck)."

Street Fighter example: "Low Strong" - David Sirlin doesn't know how to outplay his opponent, so he adopts a tactic so weird that just maybe his opponent won't figure out how to counter it.

EDIT: Of course the poker example would be David Sklansky's "The System," designed to give the "underdog" (i.e. clueless player) as much variance as possible against good players.

Good post and I agree with some of it while disagreeing with others, but I still liked it.

Kind of on topic, but I first heard of turtling from Street Fighter where players generally stay away from the opponent timing small hits or combos and slowly chipping away at their opponent's life bar. Generally, bad/new players do this often, but there are always acceptions who can turtle and still win.

[Snoogins47]

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To the starcraft example: Expanding aggressively and focusing on 'turtling' with the Terrans isn't what the OP was takling about. The OP was talking about what I used to do, which was making sure that I had Toss Cannons on every square of map within there screens of my base.

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I don't think that is what OP meant. I'll agree with XHad, the prototypical turtler is the one makes his base impenatrable. With Terran, that is seige tanks behind those buildings where you can put 4 marines. With Toss, it's cannons. With Zerg, it's sunken and spore conolies.

What OP appeared to mean is that, while the newbie has made an impenatrable defense at home, he's allowed his opponent to expand to all the minerals and gas on the map. Eventually, the turtler will run out of resources and have to expand. The person who has already expanded is either already there or has a large resource advantage which he can use to prevent the expansion.

Building cannons all over the map is something you just don't see on Starcraft, except maybe on Big Game Hunters.

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I know, but I did it, and that's why I sucked (cannons all over the base really, not the map. I wasn't clever enough to use them offensively) The idea was the same though: games lasted a long time, but I almost inevitably lost [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Xhad]

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Kind of on topic, but I first heard of turtling from Street Fighter where players generally stay away from the opponent timing small hits or combos and slowly chipping away at their opponent's life bar.

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This is exactly what one of my friends told me when I pointed this essay out to him. He also said that was the first place he heard the term "pitbulling"...I love it, I've never heard that one but I'm pretty sure I know exactly what it means. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

When I first saw this thread I thought it was about playing so long you forget to go to the bathroom--until it's partially too late. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Interesting corrolation between Starcraft and MTT poker. Never tought I would hear that one. Thanks for the post.