A losing play?

Saborion · #1 12-21-2004, 09:26 AM

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB
Main Pot: 12.25 BB, between BB, MP1 and Hero.

Brash620 · #2 12-21-2004, 09:47 AM

You should have value bet the river. Other than that everything looks good.

sthief09 · #3 12-21-2004, 09:55 AM

it looks good to me. river bet is close. on one hand, you have the first guy beat. on the other. your have a 7 kicker against a guy who probably has an A. he bet into 3 people twice. I think taking your free showdown is fine.

chief444 · #4 12-21-2004, 09:59 AM

I like it. I'd be a little concerned with the button on the turn raise. His pf raise and flop call looks somewhat suspicious. But I still like the turn raise. And I also check the river unimproved, although it's probably close.

Fat Nicky · #5 12-21-2004, 12:03 PM

I don't like the pre-flop limp. I like to be pretty sure of 4 or 5 way action and no raise before I limp here.

I like raising better than calling the flop because it could get you a cheap showdown if they check to you on the turn. Calling here just makes the hand more difficult to play.

I don't like the turn raise, you're not getting both players to fold, you are likely behind to a stronger A, there is the possibility of getting 3-bet, and you lose or gain the same if you just call down to the river.

River check is fine.

Saborion · #6 12-21-2004, 01:27 PM

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I don't like the pre-flop limp. I like to be pretty sure of 4 or 5 way action and no raise before I limp here.

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Isn't that mostly the case on these loose and passive tables.

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I like raising better than calling the flop because it could get you a cheap showdown if they check to you on the turn.

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Are you suggesting checking behind on the turn if they check to you? Whatever happened to protecting your hand in a big pot?

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I don't like the turn raise, you're not getting both players to fold, you are likely behind to a stronger A, there is the possibility of getting 3-bet, and you lose or gain the same if you just call down to the river.

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You don't lose the same since you may let the PFR in cheaply and he may outdraw you. The pot is big, you may have the best hand, shouldn't you try to protect it?

Fat Nicky · #7 12-21-2004, 01:43 PM

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Isn't that mostly the case on these loose and passive tables.

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You didn't specify that was the texture of the table. Even so, I like to be 95% sure of no raise before limping after only 1 limper.

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Are you suggesting checking behind on the turn if they check to you? Whatever happened to protecting your hand in a big pot?

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Yes, if you raise the flop, i consider checking behind on the turn. I am suggesting this taking into consideration that you're likely behind at this point. You also don't do much to protect your hand if in fact you are ahead, any one with a flush draw is not folding, and anyone else is drawing thin to your TP.

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You don't lose the same since you may let the PFR in cheaply and he may outdraw you. The pot is big, you may have the best hand, shouldn't you try to protect it?

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You try and protect it when it's likely you have the best hand. Here, I believe there is a chance you do have the best hand, but it's unlikely, IMO. Now, I'm not saying to fold the hand, I just like to see cheap showdown with weak Aces when there is a PFR.

Saborion · #8 12-21-2004, 01:58 PM

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Isn't that mostly the case on these loose and passive tables.

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You didn't specify that was the texture of the table. Even so, I like to be 95% sure of no raise before limping after only 1 limper.

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As I said, that's mostly the case on these tables, and since I didn't specify anything, you could assume that it is a normal 2/4 table. That said, maybe you don't play at Party 2/4 so I should've included it.

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Are you suggesting checking behind on the turn if they check to you? Whatever happened to protecting your hand in a big pot?

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Yes, if you raise the flop, i consider checking behind on the turn. I am suggesting this taking into consideration that you're likely behind at this point. You also don't do much to protect your hand if in fact you are ahead, any one with a flush draw is not folding, and anyone else is drawing thin to your TP.

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Don't you think it's better to bet the turn and check behind on the river since that cost as much as checking the turn and call the river, with the added benefit that you charge them to see the next card?

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You don't lose the same since you may let the PFR in cheaply and he may outdraw you. The pot is big, you may have the best hand, shouldn't you try to protect it?

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You try and protect it when it's likely you have the best hand. Here, I believe there is a chance you do have the best hand, but it's unlikely, IMO. Now, I'm not saying to fold the hand, I just like to see cheap showdown with weak Aces when there is a PFR.

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If it's that unlikely that we have the best hand, aren't we better of folding? I mean, if the odds are good enough for us to continue, shouldn't we toss in another bet and try to protect our hand the times it is best?

Fat Nicky · #9 12-21-2004, 02:15 PM

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Don't you think it's better to bet the turn and check behind on the river since that cost as much as checking the turn and call the river, with the added benefit that you charge them to see the next card?

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This is a viable option, if you're capable of folding to a check/raise.

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If it's that unlikely that we have the best hand, aren't we better of folding? I mean, if the odds are good enough for us to continue, shouldn't we toss in another bet and try to protect our hand the times it is best?

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There is no clear cut way of determining whether you are ahead or behind here. That said, I think you need to do your best to get to a cheap showdown which is best done by raising the flop rather than the turn.

I hope I am not rambling, and I dont' want to come off as my way is the right way, I am just stating my views as to why I would play the hand the way I described, which could in fact, be the worst way [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

MVicuna · #10 12-21-2004, 06:37 PM

Hi,

You'll need a very loose passive table to limp with A7s after only 1 limper. You can probably get away with it, but I tend to run much better when I fold Axs in MP after 1 limper. I run even better when I raise with Axs in LP vs 1 limper. YMMV.

If its a typical 2/4 table his raise is going to mean your dominated normally. getting 1:7 on your money is ok, but by no means where you want to be due to the likely domination.

What is BB betting? KQ? 89? Axs? Hopeless bluff? Calling is right here with a backdoor flush and the PFR behind you.

The turn raise is iffy, Only the Button is going to fold. So your raise doesn't really protect your hand as He's folding roughly 2-6 outs. Or he pops you with his slowplayed set. That'll be fun!

The river bet has very little value is the one thing I agree with though. There are only three Ax hands your beating and all other hands your beating probably fold to a river bet.

Weak two pair are still going to call hoping to catch a bluff. I know I would given this hand. Limping in MP with Axs after 1 limper and then raising the turn with TPWK. These are moves that will work well at 2/4 where nobody is paying attention, but at tougher tables you'll not be able to do this.

This also an example as why AT/AJ is a must raise situation after limpers, a lot of people get a little to complacent thinking they can sneak into pots with Axs even without enough limpers ahead of them.

Later,
MarkV.