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  #41  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: A Very Sincere Reply

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I got a bit confused with the first sunday of each month and thought it had to be something else.

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Its a Lutheran thing. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #42  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:15 AM
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"Animals murder, steal, "rape", kill their own, and yet they are rational, because to not do so would threaten their survival, which is their only "meaning". Clearly humans descend from the animal order, yet clearly we are no longer animals. Yet the objectivist or the "realist" view denies this and purports, basically, that we are animals. That I do not like nor accept."

Then how do you explain this obviously apparent behavior in humans? Why would God give us such qualities if they are only conducive to evil?
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  #43  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: A question for Christians AND atheists

I question the merit of the Christian faith. I question the intellectual honesty of its followers. By that phrase I mean their willingess to ask themselves tough questions. I used to be a Christian and I remember avoiding those questions, by either ignoring science or relying on very weak arguments from Christian authorities, which I should have known to be specious. It was later when I questioned my reasons for wanting to hang on to my faith in the absence of good reason. That was my final gateway to atheism.
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  #44  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: A Very Sincere Reply

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Clearly humans descend from the animal order, yet clearly we are no longer animals. Yet the objectivist or the "realist" view denies this and purports, basically, that we are animals. That I do not like nor accept.

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Riddick,


Again, that is the issue (re-phrased) that all atheists face in one way or another. We are animals, we have like all species distinguishing characteristics, one of which is our reflexivity, our ability to juggle with abstractions, which contribute to the determination of our behaviour. But to infer anything supernatural from that is too big a step, unwarranted by any possible evidence.

However that recognition may be sufficient to discover a meaning to your life, or make it up. without having to rely on the concept of an absolutely immoral god(s) to guide your choices.
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  #45  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:24 AM
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Default Re: A Very Sincere Reply

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Then how do you explain this obviously apparent behavior in humans?

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In the same way that other obviously apparant animal attributes (hair, tailbones, appendix) are present in humans.

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Why would God give us such qualities if they are only conducive to evil?


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We already know why such qualities are present. The more important question would be why would God give us, among other incredible qualities, reason, that does not exist in any other living thing on Earth? The ability to question whether something is morally right or wrong, in defiance of the selfish, "rational" innate desire?
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  #46  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:40 AM
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Default Re: A question for Christians AND atheists

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That was my final gateway to atheism.


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It should have been your gateway out of Catholicism. But rather you gave up on asking yourself tough questions in order to land on an easy answer. And that is the definition of intellectually honest?
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  #47  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:45 AM
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It seems obvious in the Christian model why God would give us reason. It is to decipher right from wrong, in the way that he instructs us to decipher it. If we ignore the instruction in the bible, though, we can use reason to come to many different conclusions, sometimes those that oppose God's wishes. Why would God gives us eyes, letting us see the apparent godlessness of this earth, and endow us with reason, to further let us stray from his true path? Is he a great deceiver?
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  #48  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:50 AM
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Default Re: A Very Sincere Reply

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We already know why such qualities are present. The more important question would be why would God give us, among other incredible qualities, reason, that does not exist in any other living thing on Earth? The ability to question whether something is morally right or wrong, in defiance of the selfish, "rational" innate desire?

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Riddick,

It seems the more important question would be why did god give us a deficient immune system, a deficient eye, etc.. and that apply to "healthy" beings, why would a god allows, or intervene, in the conception to ensure that there are some that are born in unviable form, or seriously disadvantged forms, etc...

And indeed I think it right to question the immorality of such a god should one believe in it, rather than subvert the meaning of the word love by superimposing it on such a thing. By the way this only, touches ,on the apparent immorality of the being that you call god. There are heaps more examples to list. I do not mean to sound disrepectful, but I find it obscene and, worst, it is achieved via a sort of perversion of language which is only attributable to the worst forms of propangada. Orwell's 1984 double talk comes to mind here.
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  #49  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:52 AM
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Default Re: A question for Christians AND atheists

If you look back at my original post you'll see that I was raised Protestant, not Catholic. I also studied the bible on my own, as well as many other religions. Look, I can't possibly get into all the reasons for becoming an atheist in a few minutes, even a few hours. And do you really think atheism is an easy answer? It's much easier to believe in a god. Realizing nobody is up there after believing it your whole life doesn't exactly make you want to jump for joy.
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  #50  
Old 12-09-2005, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: A question for Christians AND atheists

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Faith and religion were invented by people who felt the same weaknesses I did and we all do from time to time. It's comforting to think there is an all-knowing being out there. It's not reasonable, though. I'd rather live honestly than blissfully. Then again, my religious days were anything but blissful.


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Do you see how inconsistent this is? You said religion made you miserable so you became an atheist. Logically, atheism was invented by people who didn't want to feel uncomfortable. That very tired, old bromide you offer for why religion was invented just doesn't wash, logically or practically. You might want to think a little deeper about why you rejected God.
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