PartyPoker $3/$6 is NOT LOOSE nor FISHY

[goodguy_1]

The generic $3-6 online game at Party right now plays like a crappy $15-30 B&M game.

You must get to decent tables-that should be your top priority. It sounds to me that you really need to work on your game.My first $3-6 attempt about a year ago I failed not becuase I lost I just could not make much..I was making like $3.00 an hour for my first 20K-30K ..what a fuggin loser I was very depressed about that.I soldiered on thu and finally figured 2 things out: I had run really poorly my first 25K hands and I also was not playing well enough to make consistent good money.I needed to improve parts of my game. I absolutely crushed $2-4 hideously for 1-2 years so this was so fuggin frustrating for me.It pushed back my progress where IF I had beaten those games the way I am now I would now be playing $15-30. That means my stumbling at that level probably cost me at a minimum $100K by not getting into the $15-30 games when they were at their best last year [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Oh well I wasnt up to the task I think I was complacent I needed to work on my game and I've done that. I didnt really utilize 2+2 for all it was worth and I was arrogant in that I'd made a fair living playing B&M poker for 2 full years-silly dumb me..what a waste of time. Now I feel better cause I'm beating both $3-6 and $5-10 the way I want-kinda-still not ready for $15-30 swings thu.

Areas I had to improve on were multi-fold.My really problem was a lack of awareness.I wasnt focusing enough on each hand and in $3-6 you are playing better opponents must often withn better holdings.Even if all the $3-6 TAGS play horrible post flop they still are tight and that means paper-that measn if you can blow them off the flop they are most likely hanging around w/ gutshots,overcards or pocket pairs all semi-powerful holdings.The idea that TAGS all play bad on Party is just silly.
You must recognize that $3-6 with it's blind structure the game plays much different than $2-4. The 1/3 blind structure makes the game tighter post-flop unless you are at a particularly good game. The blind structure is the driving force behind correct $3-6 play and for me particualry the adjustments I had to make.

I could get away w/ being LAGY and lazy postflop in $2-4 were players held drek and were passive but I could not do that in $3-6. I still am a LAG postflop but off of a 16%VPIP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
You need to play well around the blinds in $3-6 Full. You need to defend you blinds liberally and you need to steal often..it is required if you want to beat this game handily that you are very aggressive around the blinds. The only way you can get better at that is to do it and continue to play alot and adapt hopefully. IF you cant adapt go back down and try again next quarter.After all making money is more important than what limit you play at right??-you can $1000-$1200 a week playing $2-4 Fulltime [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I know of a solid $2-4 player that has been playing $2-4 for 2 years he probably makes ~$8 an hour per table or ~3.25 per 100 hands at $2-4. He moved up to $3-6 early this year and he ran well at first but he could not make the adjustments he just had no play in his game he was too tight in the blinds and didnt steal enough. His lack of aggression made it so he could only beat the game for probable half or three-quarters of his $2-4 winrate. You can't win any decent money at $3-6 being just tight you need to pump up the aggression.My problem is I've always been too aggressive on the flop and my aggression tails off on the Turn and River.This is costing me money but I'm aware of it now and working on it.I need to maintain aggression on the turn and river.Missing value bets on the end in pots w/ less than 3 way action probably costs 0.125-0.25bb/100 hands overall I would guess.
Initially to succesfully beat the game I played much tighter than my $2-4 numbers.My $2-4 numbers were like 18%VPIP/9%PFR/w/high TA numbers dont have them offhand.I was like 15% VPIP/9%PFR.MY current stats at $3-6 are like this 16.50% VPIP/10%PFR/2.80.ASB is 32%.Wtsd is 30% Won$at SD is 61.50%.But my aggression stats are unorthodox:3.81/2.65/1.75..so are my other stats.my went to showdown too low and my win$ at showdown too high.These stats are from my whole db.. my newer play I play more hands and I'm trying to tone down the obvious over-aggression on the flop also trying to maintian more aggression throughout most hands.By being aggressive on the flop I tend to make alot of laydowns everywhere on flop,turn and even river maybe too much so on the river but I play well post-flop and have very good reading skills.I still should possibly attempt to tone my style down-but it works.But I feel I need to improve on some things bigtime.

Dont use my stats cause they are funky here is a better post to gauge and dissect your game vs.the "better $3-6 2+2'ers" purely on numbers: Stats Re: I hate you tiger woods.... AKA: Stats post

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
I am beginning to believe that I should stop rereading SSH and start to master HPFAP if I want to continue with 3/6

[/ QUOTE ]You are correct TIGHT is RIGHT in $3-6-very tight all the best players are ~14-19 very few in the low 20's. I play looser in $2-4 and $5-10 than $3-6-blind structure obviously..I have not even read SSH-heresy ..but what I have heard sounded unnecesarily LAGish to me for $3-6 and I know many respected posters swear by it..I know HPFAP by heart from years ago and revisit it occasionally but my starting hands selection is based on Abdul Jalib's work-which I cant find a working link for now and more now my short game play strategem from this Forum-a combo of the 2. I bought SSH but still havent read it. I should read it and about 2-3 other dozen newish books I have.
Anybody know of the new working link to Abdul's stuff?

here is a link to all his stuff on RGP Abdul Jalib Google Search grouprec.gambling.poker author

six I would tighten up in early to mid-position but at the same time try to loosen up around the blinds.Be more aggressive from the HJ,CU and Button and defend/3-bet your bigblind more often.You're going to need to learn to stick your neck out more ..you need to win more pots purely on aggression.

[Emperor]

The fish are at the Jackpot tables.

If you are 12 tabling, then put yourself on the lists for everygame with a pot over $45, including the jackpot tables. If you are still short on good tables look at 5/10 (inc JP tables), or add some 2/4 tables.

[SinSixer]

Thanks for the insightful reply. I agree with many of your points, and your stats and that link really helped me diagnos the malignancies in my game.

There were 3 stats that I found to be way out of line with solid play:

My VPIP for all of 3/6 was 22.01, which is much to high for these games as I was beginning to suspect. I think I have learned that Party 3/6 isnt just Party 2/4 for $2 more. The looseness and aggression is like night and day between the two limits. Maybe it hasnt always been like that, but its the way I see it now. I have got to figure out which exactly makes up that 4% of hands and plug that leak immediately.

Aggression isnt my issue, or at least not being aggressive enought isn't. My agression factor on all streets is pretty much in line with the means. Actually some do trend a bit lower, and think this is because I am playing those extra 4% of weaker preflop hands that flop weakly and force me to play less aggresively on those occasions.

My Won$SD is low at 51%, while the mean should be around 53.87% (for 2/4 I had a 53.5%). Winning an extra 2% of pots when you've gone to showdown 4,000 times is about 80 pots. Just averaging 4 BB per pot, is an extra $2,000 that could be in my Neteller if the cards ran better. I have to contribute that stat to some bad beats (no excuses, I really have had more then my fair share of being crushed by two outers recently, I have flopped the nut full house twice this week that have gone on to be beaten by quads, but this isnt about that). I would also have to attribute that low rate to going to far with those extra 4% of preflop hands I shouldnt be playing. I need to quarantine and eradicate those bad decisions.

You stressed the importance of play around the blinds, and I've detected that is probably the catastrophic flaw in my game. The problem isn't that I am playing these positions too weakly, its actually quite the oppostite. My attempt to steal the blinds is 32%, where the average is 27% (not to bad, but still too much) and my VPIP from the BB is 33%, where the mean is only 18% (big trouble). My folded BB to steal is 32% where the mean is 64% (oops). What is really staggering when I look at this is that I have been in the BB 5591 times and gotten involved 1863 (33%) times when it should have only been 1016 (18%) times. Thats 850+ small bets ($2550) or more that I should have never put in the middle. Granted some of these took down pots I would have never won, but on the other hand some of those mistakes surely caused me to put in big bets on later streets only to lose. So when it all evens out, I've probably thrown away over $2,000 from the BB which is just under 1 BB/100.

Those $3 calls with KTo don't seem so expensive each time when you "figure the late position raiser is on a steal". This is a case where a little here and there adds up to a lot over thousands of hands of poker. Ouch.

Looking at these stats, I guess that I could probably add at least 1.5 BB/100 to my game simply by defending and attacking the blinds considerably less often. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Im still in shock right now that this seemingly small error on my part could be the only difference between barely breaking even and winning almost 2/BB100. I keep thinking my calculations are wrong, but can't find the fallacy if there is one.

Anyway, it would have been a long time before I took a long hard look at that position and figured this out without your advice. ty, nh.

[SinSixer]

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The fish are at the Jackpot tables

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is precisely the reason why the good 3/6 games have dried up recently. The jackpot tables opened about 6 months ago, correct? And this is about the timeframe goodguy and other have said the 3/6 games became tougher. Coincidence = not.

Pulling numbers out of my a$$, I would expect that probably 75% of the purest "sure, why not give online poker a shot, fish" play at PartyPoker as opposed to one of the lesser known skins. I think the only time these players dont play on a jackpot table is when they don't realize they have to be on one to qualify. Its always a pleasure to see that on a regular table, one of the fish chats, "we gotta win that jackpot!!"

Meanwhile all the regular tables, are being populated by the rakeback whoring multitablers from the affiliate skins.

Are the skins ever going to offer the jackpot tables? Probably not. So my only solution is to close down the old Party account and get a new one for rakeback and stop playing at Euro for it.

Now what the hell am I going to do with those 40k Player Points Ive been whoring? Anyone need a beanie?

[goodguy_1]

The jackpot games are over-rated and I dont think are huge factor. I dont play on Party because I dont have rakeback there.The BBJ games have to be $2.80 per hour per table more profitable than Party's regular games for me to make the switch-no way in general are they this much better.I used to play the BBJ once in a while but maybe I should take another look.Right now 7:30 am est there are only 4 $3-6 and $5-10 BBJ games.I'm pretty much into playing $5-10 Full and 6MAX currently.

The ASB% from that survey is too low imo. My guess is you need to tighten up preflop as I said in EP MP. You said you need to raise less and defend your bb less. I'm saying defend your bb from LP steals...not all raises. My guess is you are not aggressive enough on the flop thus not finding out where you are at vs.your opponents. One good thing about high flop aggression is that if it is combined w/ good reading skills you can lay down alot of hands.I dont think you are being too aggressive stealing blinds..maybe you are defending too much from non-steals or being too passive defending against stealraises. If you're being raised by a LP steal-raise and you decide to see a flop you should 3-bet your better hands versus opponets that steal alot ie opponents that steal more then 30%.It also sounds to me like you are not laying enough hands down in general.If you are stealing alot like you do from LP you must lay some hands down--you gotta boob and weave or your LP aggression will backfire on you.Dont call down with ace high to alot of heat unless you got a real live opponent-know your opponent. I dont know how long you've been playing but getting a feel for how to balance all these parts of your game,get a feel for positional play, all this stuff takes time unless you are just a natural.

[Jeffage]

Why do you people INSIST on only playing on Party? I haven't played the low limits in awhile, but I can tell you that there are better games on other sites. If you get stubborn and never shop around, have fun with the 8 tabling rocks. It may still be beatable, but others games will yield more profit. I haven't played at Party in about 4 months and I can't say I regret my decision.

Jeff

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Then I challenge you.

Find three pushover 3/6 tables on PP within the next fifteen minutes and post them here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've missed the point of what imitation was saying.

[lorinda]

One man's fish is another man's poisson.

Lori

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to learn to use the space bar after a sentence. That is, if you want people to read your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, I did read his post and I have read every other post of his that I come across. What's your problem?