What's your move?

holman3rd · #1 02-08-2005, 10:18 PM

7 players left, all about equal stacks (approx $1400). Blinds at 50/100.

You're in the BB with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Folded to SB who completes, you check. (I know BB should probably raise, but for the sake of this particular hand, please ignore that).

Pot is $200, 2 players.

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB checks to you. What's your play? Is this a good hand for a slowplay?

The "correct" play is a big debate between me and some other players. Thanks.

Michael C. · #2 02-08-2005, 10:27 PM

I would check here. It's doubtful you'll make much money on the hand in any case, but I don't think checking an 8 high flop is that suspicious. If you had raised, I'd put in a small bet since checking would be too obviously trapping. But I'd check here and hope he hits one of his hole cards on the turn or even the river. It's doubtful he'll call you now because if he hit a small pair on the flop he'd almost have to bet it out since he couldn't risk a free card overcard. If he had bet the flop I would have smoothe called and possibly checked the turn if he checked it.

spentrent · #3 02-08-2005, 10:33 PM

COME ON! Slowplay this 'til the river. You're only gonna make a buck if the SB pairs up.

holman3rd · #4 02-08-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
COME ON! Slowplay this 'til the river. You're only gonna make a buck if the SB pairs up.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. I'm debating this on another poker forum, and my strong belief is that is an almost ideal slowplay situation. I'm in the minority, so I thought I'd come over here and get a different point of view.

The problem is that the original poster posted the results at the start, so I think some of the reponses were results-oriented.

The SB had A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] came on the turn. The SB checked, the BB went all in, got called by the SB, and the river completed the flush for the SB.

I argued that an "ideal" slowplay situation isn't risk free. Sometimes it backfires, but you're missing out on bets over the long term if you always play fast in these types of situations.

Some advocates of the fastplay believed that you only slowplay when you have the stone-cold nuts. Again, I argued that you'd almost never slowplay if that were the case, and that would cost you bets. Also, I argued that "thinking" players would pick up on this and not give you much action when you try your slowplay.

I'm open to being wrong on this. The fact that there were so many posters opposed to my view encouraged me to post here for your thoughts.

Someone from the other forum will probably find this thread and report back that I posted here. I'm not trying to prove that I'm right. Although I do think I'm right [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], so many opposing views make me question my beliefs. I'm just seeking the best answer.

Michael C. · #5 02-08-2005, 11:04 PM

Whoever says you should fastplay this because a 5 of diamonds came can play with me all day. If I had the trip 8s, I'd be glad that card came and I got him all in. He has 15 outs on the river, out of 44 cards. So he's a 2-1 underdog and risking 1200 to win 1600. It's a horrible call by him based on what you have, and if you lose you just got unlucky.

AtticusFinch · #6 02-08-2005, 11:06 PM

I'd worry about the possible straight draw in an unraised pot. I'd probably check-raise the flop (few could resist betting at that flop from the button) and be satisfied. I think that it's a decent compromise between slowplaying all the way and betting right out, but some may think it's still too conservative.

holman3rd · #7 02-08-2005, 11:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Whoever says you should fastplay this because a 5 of diamonds came can play with me all day. If I had the trip 8s, I'd be glad that card came and I got him all in. He has 15 outs on the river, out of 44 cards. So he's a 2-1 underdog and risking 1200 to win 1600. It's a horrible call by him based on what you have, and if you lose you just got unlucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny you should comment on that. There was a lot of banter about how the SB never should have called the all-in and that the BB's all-in was intended to knock the SB off any draws he might have (by folding, obviously). I argued that I'd want a call from the SB all day. After all, don't you make money in poker by having opponents make the wrong plays?

By the way, I might weak lead this flop against a calling station who likes to play table sheriff.

willie24 · #8 02-08-2005, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks to you. What's your play? Is this a good hand for a slowplay?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not sure. i doubt it. say you have 2 options: either bet 100 or check.

if you check- you are giving a free card to a straight draw (theres like 6 or 7 possible ones out there). that's not good, but it's not a huge deal. this is what's more important: if the SB hits a pair on the turn, how likely are you to find a way to get him allin?

now, if you bet $100 on the flop, will the SB call with any pair or any draw? if he will, obviously you want to bet that 100. now, if he calls, the pot is bigger, and it should be easier to get him to call some more on the turn. you can get him allin now if he hits a pair.

by betting you are representing: an 8,a 6, a 2, or a bluff. those are the hands your opponent will put you on.

if you check and bet the turn- what your opponent puts you on will be very dependant on the turn card. there's a good chance that the turn card will be such that he will fear a straight or a pair higher than 8. wouldn't you rather have him assume you have an 8?

if he won't call 100 on the flop, there's no way he's going to get allin on this hand anyway.

By the way, not going allin preflop was absolutely awful.

Michael C. · #9 02-08-2005, 11:53 PM

If your opponent had an outside straight draw or a small pair, why wouldn't he lead with a bet? I know I would since most likely that will win the pot right now, and if not you have a draw. So I'd think in this case 90% of the time your opponent does not have a hand and does not have a draw. So I think you have to give him a free card and hope he pairs up or turns a draw, since that's the only way you figure to get action.

willie24 · #10 02-09-2005, 01:40 AM

you would be surprised at how many people check here with small pairs and draws.

i'm not saying never slowplay this. but i am saying, it's probably smart to bet here sometimes: especially if you have an aggressive table image. (now that I think of it, if this guy checks preflop from the BB against only the SB with 88, he probably doesn't have much of an aggressive image)