One of those hands I was told to post...

[Josh W]

I don't like online poker, cuz it's just a little too mundane. Not that live poker is any less mundane, but there's more joking around and comraderie. The POKER is the same, and sometimes I feel like I can play like a zombie.

But today, a hand came up that made me, well, as one 2+2er put it made me "play a little poker".

I'm in seat 2, the SB. S is in the BB. He's a Solid player (and a 2+2er). T is in seat 8. He's a little predictable, probably slight winner. P is on the button. He's very very very very very bad. His strategy, or lack thereof, is so immensely flawed, he is going broke quickly.

There are about 5 limpers in this hand (25-50, by the way), and I call w/ 65o in the SB. 7 way action.

Flop comes Qc 7s 3c. I happen to have the 6c, not that it really matters.

I check my gutshot, and S bets in the BB. He's semi-notorious (in my mind) for betting flushdraws into big fields. UTG calls, T calls in late position, and P calls. I call getting like 12:1 on my gutshot, but I sorta fear the 4c.

Turn is the 5c, putting a flush out there.

I check, having lost a good chunk of interest in the hand. S now checks, and it gets checked around.

Now, S....hmmm. He's a friend of mine, so I hate to criticize. But he sometimes gets a little gunshy around scare cards. But, he's also a very good player, and may be going for a checkraise (there are a lot of people to act after him, and the 5c likely hit somebody).

In general, I think that if S has the flush here, it's the nut-or-damn-near-nut flush. I don't think he'll risk giving a free card to a big club with, say, the 9-high flush. As such, I gotta think he has a hand like a Queen (without a big club), a set, or the nut flush. Maybe two pair.

The river brings a red four, giving me a straight. To recap, the board is Q7543, with three clubs, and I have 65, for a straight.

For some reason I check. I hate not having position, so I wanted to see what developed. Plus I didn't want to have to face a raise. I guess....my thing is this...my biggest strength is hand reading, and if I bet, I can't read anything.

Ah, hell. I can't justify checking. I can't use rationalization. I can't use math or logic. But I can honestly say that it FELT right. And I think that's worth a lot.

S bets. He was noticeably uncertain in this bet. Maybe he had Q6 and made a straight. Maybe he had a small flush, and for some silly reason was worried about a bigger flush. Maybe he had a set or two pair, and just realized as he bet that a four-card straight was out there. Whatever it was, he was hesitant.

UTG mucks, and T does the deep grab - ya know, grab about $120 in chips, like he wants to raise, starts ripping off stacks of chips...but stops at the call. He just calls, but I'm very very very confident he has a straight. I put him on 76 as his most likely holding.

And now, P raises on the button. Generally, his play is completely illogical and impossible to predict. But I figure that there is NO WAY he checks a flush on the turn. He had the button, afterall. But he's also the kind to fall in love with two pair. So, yes, he could have two pair. Really.

And, well, what to do now?

I'll post more later.

Josh

[Josh W]

Well, that was long. I actually wrote a longer version (it starts the same, just goes through what I did and the results). I've included the longer version here. For your reading ease, what I'll do is this...I'll put a line of hyphens down below, where the new stuff starts. Hope that makes sense...
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I don't like online poker, cuz it's just a little too mundane. Not that live poker is any less mundane, but there's more joking around and comraderie. The POKER is the same, and sometimes I feel like I can play like a zombie.

But today, a hand came up that made me, well, as one 2+2er put it made me "play a little poker".

I'm in seat 2, the SB. S is in the BB. He's a Solid player (and a 2+2er). T is in seat 8. He's a little predictable, probably slight winner. P is on the button. He's very very very very very bad. His strategy, or lack thereof, is so immensely flawed, he is going broke quickly.

There are about 5 limpers in this hand (25-50, by the way), and I call w/ 65o in the SB. 7 way action.

Flop comes Qc 7s 3c. I happen to have the 6c, not that it really matters.

I check my gutshot, and S bets in the BB. He's semi-notorious (in my mind) for betting flushdraws into big fields. UTG calls, T calls in late position, and P calls. I call getting like 12:1 on my gutshot, but I sorta fear the 4c.

Turn is the 5c, putting a flush out there.

I check, having lost a good chunk of interest in the hand. S now checks, and it gets checked around.

Now, S....hmmm. He's a friend of mine, so I hate to criticize. But he sometimes gets a little gunshy around scare cards. But, he's also a very good player, and may be going for a checkraise (there are a lot of people to act after him, and the 5c likely hit somebody).

In general, I think that if S has the flush here, it's the nut-or-damn-near-nut flush. I don't think he'll risk giving a free card to a big club with, say, the 9-high flush. As such, I gotta think he has a hand like a Queen (without a big club), a set, or the nut flush. Maybe two pair.

The river brings a red four, giving me a straight. To recap, the board is Q7543, with three clubs, and I have 65, for a straight.

For some reason I check. I hate not having position, so I wanted to see what developed. Plus I didn't want to have to face a raise. I guess....my thing is this...my biggest strength is hand reading, and if I bet, I can't read anything.

Ah, hell. I can't justify checking. I can't use rationalization. I can't use math or logic. But I can honestly say that it FELT right. And I think that's worth a lot.

S bets. He was noticeably uncertain in this bet. Maybe he had Q6 and made a straight. Maybe he had a small flush, and for some silly reason was worried about a bigger flush. Maybe he had a set or two pair, and just realized as he bet that a four-card straight was out there. Whatever it was, he was hesitant.

UTG mucks, and T does the deep grab - ya know, grab about $120 in chips, like he wants to raise, starts ripping off stacks of chips...but stops at the call. He just calls, but I'm very very very confident he has a straight. I put him on 76 as his most likely holding.

And now, P raises on the button. Generally, his play is completely illogical and impossible to predict. But I figure that there is NO WAY he checks a flush on the turn. He had the button, afterall. But he's also the kind to fall in love with two pair. So, yes, he could have two pair. Really.

And, well, what to do now?
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I can call the two cold, hope S doesn't have a small flush, and hope to be chopping with T (cuz I put him on the straight).

I could fold, instead of calling two cold when I have three opponents on the river, none of whom can I say I have beat.

So, I'm trying to decide, and fortunately P is really struggling with his chips. So, while he's fudging around, I start to think about the OTHER option. See, we always only have 3 choices as poker players, and it's silly to not consider all three.

Well, hmmm, S and T both respect me. Both know that I could checkraise a flush. Both (should) know that I often won't bet/raise a flushdraw on the flop, but get freakydeaky on the turn.

If T has a straight, he won't want to call two more cold on the river. If S has a small flush, there's a nonzero chance that he may fold it. And, instead of chopping the pot 2 or 3 ways, I may win the pot outright, or split it in half instead of thirds.

So, I do the REALLLLY deep grab, say raise, and put out $150. S mucks. T thinks for 3 seconds, and mucks. P says "it's just not my night" and calls. He has 43o for two pair, and I win the pot.

Right after I showdown, S says to me, quietly, "very nice play" or some such equivalent. Two other players (J and ST, for those scoring along at home) then say "Where did you learn that move?" and "That was the best play of the decade".

And I promise I never ever would have posted this hand unless S asked me to. In the interest of full disclosure, I got annihilated tonight, though I feel that I played pretty well. Maybe S will comment and identify himself...

[Ponks]

If you're confident in your reads you could 3-bet. Perhaps S would fold a small flush (coupled with the possibility you already have him beat) or you might get someone you chop with out of the hand as well. Is it worth it? Not sure? I'm assuming S wouldn't overcall anything other then a straight or better.

Ponks

[Ponks]

Ah crap that's no fun. It took me more then 5 minutes to read and study the post and then I make my post and notice the results. Too slow. Give more then 3 minutes later!

Ponks

[Lawrence Ng]

Check-raise 3 bet, drive out S, and hopefully chop this pot 2 way with T.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe S will comment and identify himself...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played that hand expertly. Like you said the only way I am checking a flush on the turn is maybe if I have the stone cold nut. Those guys will call anyway with a seven, a queen, and decent sized club etc, and I dont have reason enough to believe that anybody is going to bet behind me to check one there. There isnt enough info with everybody just smooth calling, and after leading the flop I probably would have just led out again had I made one. Plus it's no great accomplishment for me to have somebody from around back bet it for me since I wouldnt want to eliminate or narrow the field anyway. And like you said in your other post, it's pretty much imposible for me to be checking a small flush because I'm not letting somebody with the nine or ten beat me without paying for it.

I held Q4 with no club, and rivered two pair. As for my turn check, I think its close but the fifty bucks just didnt find it's way to middle. Whether or not that was a mistake is another story. I bet the river because well these guys play so bad I figured there a decent chance I might get called by a worse hand, especially with our friend the button involved. Tac (MP), also usually plays pretty solid, and most of the hands he would limp with there do not include a 6. You had checked the hand on the end, so although I cant rule out you holding a straight, it seems pretty unlikely at that point. Looking back of course checking looks a lot better now, but I really dont regret my decision to bet.

As for for your river three bet, it sure looked like Tac (MP) had a straight. As irratic as the button was, there was no way he was gonna check a flush in last position on the turn. It did seem logical that he had made a straight, but two pair was certainly possible, or even a rivered set. So, you are the only guy that could really have a flush. I guess there is a small chance I checked one on the turn, but I dont think that would be very likely as I said above, and as you said I looked uncertain on the end, because I was. You on the other hand, are tricky enough to check a flush twice, and if anybody knows that it is probably Tac. It also makes sense because you, unlike me, do have reason to believe that somebody will bet the turn for you, since I bet on the flop. Anyhow, you and Tac have played enough poker together for him to know you very well might play a flush like that. You also put him in a situation where he cant call two cold. If he raises my bet instead of calls, he might win the whole pot. As it happened, he made what would seem to be the logical play by calling, and he got punsihed for it.

Ponk asked if I might fold a small flush on the river. Honestly I really dont know. As I said to you at the table, I did know that you knew the button would never check a flush in last position on the turn. But, I cant rule out a flush as one of your possible holdings because it certainly wouldnt be impossible for you to hold one in that spot. I wish I did have a small flush, it would have made the hand that more interesting.

Anyhow, I was really impressed with the way you played your hand. It was an awesome play.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish I did have a small flush, it would have made the hand that more interesting.



[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa whoa whoa...you say that, and it sounds like you aren't rooting for me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Nice playing with you again...even if I only got to threebet you once...

J

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe he had a small flush, and for some silly reason was worried about a bigger flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

The day I check a small flush there will be the same day I run for Governor of California.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wish I did have a small flush, it would have made the hand that more interesting.



[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa whoa whoa...you say that, and it sounds like you aren't rooting for me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Nice playing with you again...even if I only got to threebet you once...

J

[/ QUOTE ]

A nicer guy couldnt have gotten the money. I also thought you played great poker all night.

[Ulysses]

Josh,

I'm usually a fan of your hand posts, but this one seemed kinda mundane. I mean, who has a flush here? Seems like Steve checked the nuts on the turn into a field w/ lots of possible stuff to call with and then won an Oscar on the river - or you have him beat (or maybe tied). The caller could have a straight going for overcalls, but does he have a flush? Doesn't seem like it. Bad player you said pretty clearly doesn't have a flush and will pay you off w/ a worse hand. So you 3-bet, potentially get rid of a guy or two in the middle w/ the chopping straight, and maybe get paid off by the bad button. Seems relatively straightforward.