yo 2+2: my first post and a hand i thought was easy (long)

i just wanted to say that i love this game, and i have this forum to thank for that. i dont think that there is anyplace else with this many phenomenal poker minds in one place who all contribute to the advancement of theirs and others' game. before i started playing, i was always weary to "jump on the bandwagon" because i thought internet poker was all a scam. but then one day at my crappy work, i found party on the computer. i thought that it would help me kill a few hours and by the end of my shift, i was hooked. so then after many many hours on the clock of play money games i thought i could handle the real games, but between being a poor college student (go noles!) and not having any of the necessary accounts i needed, it took me several god d*mn weeks before i could deposit any money to a site. in the mean time i bought hold em poker by sklansky and got my first real glimpse into poker. i had no idea how complex this game is and that book opened my eyes and really made me want to start studying poker (even though i could hardly understand some of the sections). this was my first introduction to 2+2 and later i came here to check out the forum after seeing the web address on the book. i have been lurking on here ever since then (about 4 months) although i havent gotten involved in any of the discussions (i didnt want to be flamed or somebody else said it better already). from there i read WLLH, GSIH, SSH, and TOP in that order while almost living in this forum. somewhere in the middle of WLLH i finally depositted $50 on party, and started to play .50/1 . right away i started building my bankroll. i had no rakeback (still dont) and no bonuses to speak of, but that didnt slow me down. i finished all of those books (WLLH and SSH several times) and even though i had a severely short bankroll for .5/1, i was quickly well above the 300 bb mark. then i started to get cocky (although it didnt seem like it at the time). i was absolutley crushing the game for 3 months and was up around 500 bb. i knew that a "good" player would bring in about 1bb/100, but i was running at around 9-10bb/100 the way i figured it. so i started to dabble in 1/2 and even gave 2/4 6-max a shot. i won a little and lost a little and my BR reached around $700. now i became convinced that i was the greatest poker player ever and "knew" that it was time to move up full time. i started 2-tabling 1/2 and 2/4, and started to experience the first real hits to my BR. the hits kept coming and within a couple of weeks i went broke. i think that this was due mostly to my bad play and thinking that i could simply make better decisions than anyone else. i think that going broke has been the biggest learning experience in my short poker career to date and in hindsite, realize that it was a neccessary step i had to take to becoming a winning player. through all of this i have learned how to and how important it is to analyze my play from every session, and the downfalls from being results oreinted. im still playing at .5/1 with an occasional 1/2 table here and i keep studying to get better.

i owe a huge debt to 2+2, this forum, and all of the posters that always write those brilliant poker essays for giving me such a wonderful game, and the knowledge to beat it.

here is a hand that gave me some trouble tonight.

BB has been LAGgy all night, MP is in his 2nd orbit at the table. nothing to hair raising from either yet.

partypoker .5/1 7-handed

hero is button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP calls, 1 fold, hero calls, SB completes, BB checks

is this a bad call w/one limper pf? do i need this to be a more multiway pot for K9s to be +ev? or should i be raising? i think pre-flop play is an area where i can vastly improve my game and im sorry if these questions seem basic.

flop (4 sb): K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB bets , MP calls, hero calls, SB calls

BB seemed LAGgy and has been a complete autobet. i figured that i might still be ahead and even if someone did had an A, there were still alot of cards (10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]'s, 2 K's, 3 9's) that would improve my hand on the turn. i would have raised to protect, but i might be behind and didnt want to walk into a BB 3-bet.

turn (4 bb): A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB bets, MP raises, Hero ??

can i safely fold here or are the chances that MP has an ace cut down enough to call down. also what could BB be betting out on the flop and turn with? i didnt catch any cards to improve and didnt think i could possibly be ahead given the action. i folded without any thought. hows my decision making in this hand?

better get used to me now, cuz im a 2+2er forever.

z

[BatsShadow]

Hi z,

I like your first post. What's good is that you have a read on the hand you are asking about.

Anyway, I would fold that hand on the flop. The pot is small, and since there are 2 clubs out and a possible straight draw, your mid pair mid kicker is very weak.

Since you got there, I think your fold on the turn is also good.

BTW, I suspect that many will tell you to fold the hand preflop as well. There aren't a ton of limpers in front of you and I think your hand is only strong in a big multi-way pot or heads up.

*grunch*

hey z!

pre-flop: Your call w/ K9s on the button is fine.

flop: This is a tough call but I think you do have to bet to protect here or fold. This is a multi-way pot so far and just calling does nothing to protect your hand. I would like to see what more exp'd players say.

Turn: Fold is ok. You might be able to beat a bluffer, but not a bluffer and a caller.

grunch....

(note: i skipped to the hand, sorry man it was too long i might go read it later)

i would say there is a decent chance you are ahead here (decent as in >20%), but your odds are terrible and your not even closing the action this street, never mind the river. your most likely paying another ~4-5BB on average to fight over a pot that right now is only 4BB.

No way this is worth it, just fold and let it go.

in response to some of the other comments, i dont think you played it badly up to the turn.

arguments could be made for a fold preflop or on the flop, but i think the reads you have and the bdfd make it worthwhile sticking aroun.

[SavageMiser]

Preflop if I'm going to play this, I'm raising, but I'm more likely going to just fold it.

On the flop you've got second pair, mediocre (putting it nicely) kicker with a back-door FD. If it was just the BB, I might stick around, but the MP called, too and the SB is waiting in the wings. Smallish pot = toss.

Turn: Run away.

[WalkAmongUs]

If you knew MP was loose I would raise PF to try to isolate. I think you can get away with a call here PF though.

On the flop I think its probably a fold. Two callers before you, your getting 6:1. With two 9s, two Ks, and a backdoor flush draw you got 5.5 outs at best. I'd devalue it down to 5 outs at best due to the two-flush and straight draw on board. So you need to be getting 8:1.

You could call this with implied odds of 8:1 but this is marginal because the SB could decide to raise. In which case you'd be putting in 2 bets to win 10 dropping you to 5:1. Its very close.

On the turn you're done. You have less outs and a bet and a raise in front of you. Listen to them.

[tiltaholic]

hi and welcome.

about the first part...paragraphs are your friend.

about the hand. consider raising preflop but the limp is ok. i'd fold the flop.

[Duerig]

I'd fold the turn.