KK hand...part one

[Noo Yawk]

5-5 game. I have about $700 and raise utg for $25. My image is definitely tight. A loose-aggro raises to $75. He has about $1500. 3 loose players call the $75 cold. each has about $800. Their calls could mean anything.
The action's back to you. What's your play?

[lapoker17]

Make it $300 and try to end it here. If someone comes over the top - read dependendent - but you probably have to muck - Unless these guys are bad enough to make that move w AK or QQ.

[PokerSlut]

I don't understand why you would say this. There is already $335 in the pot. Making it $300 is half the hero's stack, which is essentially pot committing him because if he's reraised he'll be getting at least 3-to-1 on a call. The only hand that has him at worse odds is AA, and considering the villain is described as loose aggressive, you cannot possibly put him on that as his only possible holding, so you are getting correct odds to push no matter what. And obviously hero is ahead of any other hand preflop.

[lapoker17]

I don't subscribe to the I'll go broke preflop if I have KK and someone else happens to have AA line. In this case I wasn't worried about villain, but more one of the callers - I flat call in position w/ AA often.

To me, pushing here just seems counter productive - You're only getting called by AA. If you put in a solid raise without pushing, you may still get a call from AK or QQ and have a chance to get the rest of their money on the flop.

But what do I know...

[TheWorstPlayer]

I thought the general consensus was not to three-bet KK because you make it too easy to play correctly. Everyone will call with AA and fold anything else.

[lapoker17]

With this many people in the pot, I think you have to do something to at least thin the field - I don't really want to play KK out of position with 4 way action in a raised & re-rasied pot - How do you even know which cards should scare you on the flop? If any A,Q,J or T comes how good are you going to feel? I want to get heads-up, hopefully w QQ or AK.

[PokerSlut]

I didn't say push. I said that if he raises to $300 preflop (as you said) he cannot fold if he is reraised as you recommend.

[lapoker17]

Um...You said: "so you are getting correct odds to push no matter what"

[Noo Yawk]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't subscribe to the I'll go broke preflop if I have KK and someone else happens to have AA line. In this case I wasn't worried about villain, but more one of the callers - I flat call in position w/ AA often.

To me, pushing here just seems counter productive - You're only getting called by AA. If you put in a solid raise without pushing, you may still get a call from AK or QQ and have a chance to get the rest of their money on the flop.

But what do I know...

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with LA here, and this was my thought process.

[creedofhubris]

I agree with LA Poker here.

You can't play a big pot with 4 people out of position, and you can't move in preflop unless you are certain that people will call you with worse hands. So the raise to 300-400, move in on an aceless flop, is the proper choice.