In Response To sthief's Shot At Strassa...

[ML4L]

sthief,

I've never in my life gotten personal with a stranger on an online discussion forum, but I'm going to have to make an exception... I've got a number of problems with your post in which you blame Jason Strasser for "selling out" 2+2er's in the SI article. In no particular order:

1) First of all, you clearly don't know Jason personally. He is one of the most humble, modest, down-to-earth people I've ever met in my life. I know for a FACT that he didn't participate in this article to get an ego-boost, brag, show-off, etc. I called him yesterday to congratulate him on being featured in the article, and he said,

"Congratulations? Why? It's not like it's a real accomplishment."

He has NOT been showing the article off to his friends, girls, or anyone else. So, your assessment of his motives is ridiculously off-base.

2) For your information, he wasn't the only 2+2er in the article. He's just the only one whose real name is also his 2+2 handle.

3) Next, the guy who wrote about the article didn't write about 2+2 because Strasser or anyone else told him to. He knew about 2+2 completely independently of Strasser and the other people featured in the article and would have included it regardless of the specific people that he chose to profile in the article.

4) While the first three points are iron-clad fact, I'll give my two cents about something a little more subjective. In my opinion (and the opinion of every other 2+2er that I've discussed the matter with), this is NOT going to make the games tougher on the whole. There are a number of reasons for this:

- Most people aren't going to come to the forum after reading about it.

- Most people who DO come to the forum aren't going to become regular posters.

- Lastly, and most importantly, even if someone does become a regular poster, that does NOT mean that the person will become good at poker. Most people on this forum aren't very good. Most are better than the average fish, but they still aren't very good. I hope that everyone in the world comes to 2+2 and buys books and plays 40 hours a week. Any decent player shouldn't feel threatened.

But, even if the pieces of the article which mention 2+2 were going to hurt good players (I contend that they will NOT), the article on the whole will be INCREDIBLY beneficial to the player pool. For every player who dedicates himself to the game and becomes a high-level player, there will be 100 who are too dumb/lazy to get good, yet will play anyway.

You are essentially saying, "The article would have been good, as long as the author had been a crappy journalist and just not mentioned how these college guys were getting so good at poker." The author doesn't owe us (the people already at 2+2) ANYTHING. He included what he thought would make the article complete.

5) Along another line, why do you get to be so privileged to be a 2+2er, but others don't? Should we have shut the gates as soon as you registered? Your attitude is immature and selfish.

I could keep going (maybe I'll come back and add more if I get fired up again), but I think that I've gotten my point across. I think that it would be appropriate for you to start another thread in which you apologize to Jason for misdirecting your anger at him.

Again, I don't know you from Adam, nor do you know me. But, I'm not going to let a good friend of mine take crap from people for something that is not his fault and that, in my opinion, isn't a bad thing anyway.

ML4L

[trying2learn]

This is a reply that is much better worded and explained than my response in the original thread. I have to agree with just about everything ML4L says here.

[sublime]

this would have been a lot better if it was in the same thread.

also, sthief has a hot girlfriend.

[TexArcher]

I have to agree.

Anyone dedicated enough to use this site to improve significantly enough to be dangerous to you experienced players would have improved through other means anyway.

All they have to do is go to the local bookstore and they can find all the poker books listed here and many others.

And it's not like this is the only site that lists and praises Sklansky's works as must-read!

And why exactly are we discouraging the notion of beginners studying to improve? They will put a lot of money in play in the process and most will lose interest before becoming elite players, they will put in enough time to be just okay, and I love to play at a table of five people who know just enough to get themselves into trouble...

Isn't that better than if they never learn that the material is out there, get crushed out of their first hundred, and quit poker altogether?...

[Aeioux]

[ QUOTE ]
Along another line, why do you get to be so privileged to be a 2+2er, but others don't? Should we have shut the gates as soon as you registered? Your attitude is immature and selfish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
But, even if the pieces of the article which mention 2+2 were going to hurt good players (I contend that they will NOT), the article on the whole will be INCREDIBLY beneficial to the player pool. For every player who dedicates himself to the game and becomes a high-level player, there will be 100 who are too dumb/lazy to get good, yet will play anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

Still, though, the article could have had the exact same effect without mentioning 2+2.

You have no retort to that.


Adam

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Along another line, why do you get to be so privileged to be a 2+2er, but others don't? Should we have shut the gates as soon as you registered? Your attitude is immature and selfish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly.

I found 2+2 the hard way... going through tonnes of books, finally finding "Theory of Poker" ... then "HFAP"... then I finally figured out 2+2 had a website with useful information.

I'm sure my situation is not unique.



Adam

[benfranklin]

Ditto. The response to this amazes me, both the irrational conclusions and the personal invective. And most of this the-sky-is-falling rhetoric is from 20-post noobs who are worried about other people finding out about these forums. I suggest they spend some time reading posts by Strassa and others before running their mouths.

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion (and the opinion of every other 2+2er that I've discussed the matter with), this is NOT going to make the games tougher on the whole.



[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me a guy named Fossilman let the 2+2 cat out of the bag about a year ago. Seems to me he said something like he would not have won the WSOP ME if it wasn't for 2+2 books and forums. Seems to me the sky hasn't fallen since then.

[ QUOTE ]
There are a number of reasons for this:

- Most people aren't going to come to the forum after reading about it.

- Most people who DO come to the forum aren't going to become regular posters.

- Lastly, and most importantly, even if someone does become a regular poster, that does NOT mean that the person will become good at poker. Most people on this forum aren't very good. Most are better than the average fish, but they still aren't very good. I hope that everyone in the world comes to 2+2 and buys books and plays 40 hours a week. Any decent player shouldn't feel threatened.


[/ QUOTE ]

Blasphemy!!! True, but blasphemy. All the no-more-newbies posters act like all you have to do is register here and you learn the secret handshake that turns you into a $100K/year pro. Most of the people already here don't put in the time and effort and thought to take advantage of what this site offers. There is no reason to think that more newbies will be any different. For some insane reason, these people act like 2+2 is the poker version of Lake Wobegone, where all the players are above average.


[ QUOTE ]
But, even if the pieces of the article which mention 2+2 were going to hurt good players (I contend that they will NOT), the article on the whole will be INCREDIBLY beneficial to the player pool. For every player who dedicates himself to the game and becomes a high-level player, there will be 100 who are too dumb/lazy to get good, yet will play anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bring 'em on. The more the merrier. I'd put that ratio at a lot higher than 100-1, but why quibble.

[roundhouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Along another line, why do you get to be so privileged to be a 2+2er, but others don't? Should we have shut the gates as soon as you registered? Your attitude is immature and selfish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not exactly.

I found 2+2 the hard way... going through tonnes of books, finally finding "Theory of Poker" ... then "HFAP"... then I finally figured out 2+2 had a website with useful information.

I'm sure my situation is not unique.



Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

I got interested in poker, bought TOP after seeing it on a bookshelf, saw the words "For the best discussion of poker and gambling on the web, visit our web site at www.twoplustwo.com" written in large bold type on the back cover and, would you believe, found these forums. All before ever playing a hand of poker. Seems rather an easy way if you ask me.

I like to think I'm an improving player but I hardly think sthief et al are trembling in there boots because I've arrived on the scene.

I usually have a lot of time for sthief's posts, but this one was a major disappointment. Like meeting your favourite movie star and finding out there a bit of a d*ck in real life.

RH

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But, even if the pieces of the article which mention 2+2 were going to hurt good players (I contend that they will NOT), the article on the whole will be INCREDIBLY beneficial to the player pool. For every player who dedicates himself to the game and becomes a high-level player, there will be 100 who are too dumb/lazy to get good, yet will play anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

Still, though, the article could have had the exact same effect without mentioning 2+2.

You have no retort to that.


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

People who come to the forums and think they're good after lurking for a while are much more likely to keep playing losing poker.

Bernie mentioned this in the other thread, but when Thorpe came out with his book that made it possible to win at blackjack, casino profits soared. Why? Because people who think they're beating the game are going to gamble and lose, all the while blaming bad luck. The type of people that will actually spend the months of studying and learning that it takes to become a winning poker player are few and far between. That type that comes to this forum and browses for a week and thinks they know everything is far more common.