Playin illegal craps games.

ThaHero · #1 07-04-2005, 09:08 PM

Are these plus or minus EV? I would assume minus, but I know nothing about craps at all. Was hoping some math genius could swoop in and let me know in seconds, without me having to do all the math.

I know in Casinos(or think, at least), that they give you some sort of odds on your rolls. Not exactly sure how much. However, when I've watched friends play, it's always even money. Bet $5, win $10. etc. I was wondering if this constant even money odds would be beneficial in "street craps" vs. casino craps. Of course there are other -EV situations to worry about when playing craps on the street, such as the cops, stick up men, shady characters, etc. But I'm from L.A. so that doesn't bother me much. I'm more interested in the odds. Maybe I should only play my even money when betting against someone(dont pass)? Would that be +EV?

tylerdurden · #2 07-04-2005, 11:36 PM

Craps is -EV. Pass or don't pass, it doesn't matter. Even more -EV in underground games.

http://wizardofodds.com/craps

other1 · #3 07-05-2005, 12:01 AM

The pointer to wizard of odds pretty much says it all, but in a nutshell.. What you are considering a possibly good thing is actually horrible. Taking maximum odds is the way to get the house edge down to the minimum it can be, so by taking odds away from you they are making the game way more -EV.

I've never actually seen an illegal craps game in action. Do they spread out a layout? Is it literally throwing dice on the street?

youtalkfunny · #4 07-05-2005, 04:40 AM

Most, repeat MOST, back-alley dice games include cheating.

It takes years of practice to become a mechanic with cards, and about ten minutes to learn how to switch in phony dice. And I don't mean "loaded" dice, which swing the advantage one way or another--I mean dice that CANNOT lose, ever.

And don't bother watching the shooter to try to catch his move--rarely does the shooter make the switch himself. Often, he's unaware of the very switch that's going to make him a small winner.

ThaHero · #5 07-06-2005, 01:14 PM

First, let me say I have never played in a casino before, so my understanding of how the game works there may be flawed(haven't checked the wizard link yet).

In the street, or at a house, wherever, there really isnt a house. Basically its two people. Both players bet against each other. Side action is ok though. If you dont make your point, the other person gets to roll. They roll until they miss their point. Thats why I say there is no house. Its just two people against each other.

People literally throw dice in the street. Usually it must hit a wall or something similar. Sometimes they make you shake the dice in a cup to guard against cheating. No layouts, no chips, just dice, and people play anywhere. It was pretty big in my high school.

What I was thinking was maybe someone on the side could take up that role of the house, but Im not sure what that role is.

Another thing I was wondering was being a player if the odds were good. As I understand, if two people are gambling each other, someone has to have an edge, or it is even. If two people are playing craps vs. each other, there must be an edge somewhere. The money cant disappear. Maybe I will check out some crap sites or books, and I definately have to check out that link.

tylerdurden · #6 07-06-2005, 01:38 PM

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As I understand, if two people are gambling each other, someone has to have an edge, or it is even. If two people are playing craps vs. each other, there must be an edge somewhere. The money cant disappear. Maybe I will check out some crap sites or books, and I definately have to check out that link.

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In this case, the shooter has the edge on his come out roll, and the other guy has the edge after a point is established. Overall, the shooter has the worst of it, since his edge on the comeout is smaller than the otherguy's edge afterwards. Since you're playing heads up and you switch roles after the shooter sevens out, both guys have a net zero advantage overall.

CORed · #7 07-06-2005, 01:48 PM

I've only played craps in a casino once, and never in a non-casino situation, but, as I understand it, in a casino, the house has the edge on th "don't" bets, because they are really "Don't Pass" (or "Don't Come") bar 12. If the shooter rolls a 12 on the comeout, the "Don't" bets push, and the "Pass" bets lose. This is the source of the house advantage on the line bets. Of course, the house offers lots of other bets that are even worse. In a player-banked game, "Don't" bets win on a 12, so the "Don't" bettor has the same edge over the shooter (or any other player betting on the shooter) as the house has on the "Pass" bettor in a casino. Therefore, you want to try to bet more against the shooter than you have to fade when you are the shooter, if possible.

tylerdurden · #8 07-06-2005, 02:14 PM

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Therefore, you want to try to bet more against the shooter than you have to fade when you are the shooter, if possible.

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THat's exactly right. I was assuming in the back of my head that the bets are fixed, i.e. if you bet five as the shooter, you have to take five when the other guy shoots. In that case, there's zero edge. If you can vary bets so that more is at stake when the other guy is shooting you'll have the advantage.

other1 · #9 07-06-2005, 03:37 PM

I'm not sure I understand the exact mechanics of the street game, but at its simplest just remember 7 is the most common roll. If on side action you can bet someone that the shooter will seven out before hitting his number that's probably the best bet available.

ThaHero · #10 07-07-2005, 09:10 PM

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Therefore, you want to try to bet more against the shooter than you have to fade when you are the shooter, if possible.

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THat's exactly right. I was assuming in the back of my head that the bets are fixed, i.e. if you bet five as the shooter, you have to take five when the other guy shoots. In that case, there's zero edge. If you can vary bets so that more is at stake when the other guy is shooting you'll have the advantage.

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Yes. Bets are often varied. Usually you can bet whatever. Most times they start out with a basic number. However sometimes after you make a point they often double up. For instance I bet 5, get the point, bet 10 the next round, make the point, bet 20, then 25 or 30, or 40, etc. However, I'm not sure if anyone will roll for 10 but allow you to roll for 5.

I think my system will be to get side action against both players if they miss 7 on the come out. Never bet for the roller. I might try this out one day and post back some results.