Something that I've always wondered about...

J.A.Sucker · #1 04-19-2005, 04:29 PM

OK, here's a post that I hope gets some good discussion going. It's basically a summation of thoughts that I've had about the topic of those "pain in the ass" guys who are on your left.

Here's the scenario. You raise in MP or so. This raise can either be first in, or more importantly, as a semi-isolation. Let's also assume that you aren't raising light, though. You may be reraising a loosish raiser in front of you, too. In fact, this makes the situation even more interesting and clear-cut, so one can go with this scenario if you want. Remember, you aren't raising light, but you don't have AA or KK, either. Let's say you have something like JJ, AQs, or AK - something like that.

Now, this pain in the ass guy on your left is the type to cold call a lot and who plays very well after the flop. He is surely a fly in the ointment.

The question is this:

When this guy calls, I really don't like it. When guys start doing this, it limits your profitable opportunities for isolation, because you really can't go as light, since they will be in there a lot. Also, it sqeezes you in between to aggressive players after the flop in a large pot with a hand that likely has to hit to win. Not great.

However, we also know that doing this calling is a money loser, especially calling the three bets. My question is where is my perception wrong? If you have a bad player in front of you worth isolating, he's losing cash in the hand. Likewise, you have this guy behind you playing hands he shouldn't, so he's losing money, too. However, it feels like you don't make as much money in these situations as you should. Where's the money going? Are we still getting it and are blinded by the greatly increased variance of the moment? I'm honestly not sure.

bicyclekick · #2 04-19-2005, 04:33 PM

You are getting less because you're just getting their pre-flop money and they aren't (at least the player behind you) giving up much if any postflop. The player behind you describe seems like the typical 30/60 player at canterbury if you ask me. You're still making a pretty nice sum pre-flop, but it's not being compounded by post-flop mistakes that worse players make.

ResidentParanoid · #3 04-19-2005, 04:38 PM

I may be oversimplifying but: If there is a pain to your left that makes it 3 handed, you will have a lower overall win % but will make more per hand in the long run. Most of this comes from the pain's preflop mistake. The lower win % and higer EV per hand increases your variance and makes you uncomfortable.

rigoletto · #4 04-19-2005, 04:38 PM

A simpler version of Bikes answer: It's just harder to extract bets postflop from a decent player when out of position, and it's similarly harder to get away cheap. This doesn't mean that the situation is not profitable. It's just not as profitable as having a complete fish on your left.

Justin A · #5 04-19-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You are getting less because you're just getting their pre-flop money and they aren't (at least the player behind you) giving up much if any postflop. The player behind you describe seems like the typical 30/60 player at canterbury if you ask me. You're still making a pretty nice sum pre-flop, but it's not being compounded by post-flop mistakes that worse players make.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to make a reply, but this pretty much nailed it.

shmahappens · #6 04-19-2005, 04:48 PM

This situation usually happens to me when I've been isolating a complete idiot with much weaker hands than AQs and AK, I think a player who is good enough to be confident he can beat you postflop (by sacrificing some PF equity) won't continue this if you're only isolating with AQs or better (as it will be much tougher to push your off your hand, so he has to hit to win and is sacrificing a lot more PF equity).
Assuming he is calling with most any two just on the basis of position and his better play, your hand doesn't have to 'hit to win' as much as I think you implied in your post. Try looking for situations that from his perspective would be a good time to steal from you (ie: raising scare cards, midling flops).
And yes, these situations annoy me too.
If he persists then tighten up your isolating hands, as with the less powerful hands you'll have a smaller edge against him, which he will be able to overcome with better postflop play.

DiamondDave · #7 04-19-2005, 05:11 PM

It seems like when I have position in heads-up pots, I enjoy a lot of fold equity. But when I raise or re-raise to isolate and someone comes in behind me, a large pot is created. The large pot makes it much less likely that I'll win the hand before the river card is dealt. And if the pot is large enough and my hand is vulnerable enough, I would prefer to win before the river card is dealt even if I have the best hand on the turn.

mmcd · #8 04-19-2005, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A simpler version of Bikes answer: It's just harder to extract bets postflop from a decent player when out of position, and it's similarly harder to get away cheap. This doesn't mean that the situation is not profitable. It's just not as profitable as having a complete fish on your left.

[/ QUOTE ]

The short version:

[ QUOTE ]
position

[/ QUOTE ]

J.A.Sucker · #9 04-19-2005, 05:31 PM

So you are saying that this third guy is taking money from you? This would imply that he's making it from you and the other guy. This isn't correct, I don't think, because otherwise, you should start playing lots of hands here, and I'm not ready to start doing that.

David Steele · #10 04-19-2005, 05:40 PM

Here is one idea.

When the third player comes in, he is not doing so bad against your fairly goid hand, but he is doing very badly against the other premium hands you could have had in this situation. So he got lucky this time and doesn't lose much or anything to you.

Over the whole set of hands you play this way he is a loser so there is no paradox.

D.