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| View Poll Results: What stakes do you prefer? | |||
| Stars .01/.02 ($5 buy-in) |
   
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12 | 37.50% |
| Stars .05/.10 or .10/.25 ($10 or $25 buy-in) |
  
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11 | 34.38% |
| Party .25/.50 ($25 buy-in) |
  
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9 | 28.13% |
| Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#1
03-12-2005, 04:28 AM
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Wait until the turn or raise the flop?
Table is pretty good.
This is the BB's first hand at the table, I have never seen him before BTN is in his second orbit and I had quickly defined him as textbook maniac. One of his first hands, he second limped/called preflop in the CO (I raised in the BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]), capped a three-way flop of J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], capped the turn heads up when K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] fell on the turn, then raised and called a 3-bet when 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] fell on the river. He held Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Props to Bison for his converter converter Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls. Flop: (6.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero ? This is a draw dead board. Do I raise hoping the maniac three-bets me and he and I get heads up? Is this a good place to smooth call believing that the BTN is more likely to raise if I call, then I can re-raise the flop. Call/call and wait to raise a non-king turn. Vern Standard Disclaimer, I am by no means an expert at any of this. 
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#2
03-12-2005, 10:10 AM
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Re: Wait until the turn or raise the flop?
Waiting until the turn to raise seems all right to me. If Button raises the flop and you get a chance to call/3-bet, I'm thinking that's a bonus.
I'm not really so concerned about getting heads-up with Button, as I think BB probably has 2-5 outs (3 outs, in particular, seems likely), and the pot isn't all that big. One potential drawback of waiting, though, is that you might not get bet into on the turn, especially if BB gets called in two places and starts worrying about his kicker. In any event, I don't think I would change my plan if a king fell on the turn. I guess someone could have K7 or K2 (or possibly even KK), but otherwise I don't see how a king on the turn would change things that much.
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#4
03-12-2005, 10:32 AM
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Re: Wait until the turn or raise the flop?
If it were heads up I might wait until the turn, but here I want to take control of the hand.
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#5
03-12-2005, 10:34 AM
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Re: Wait until the turn or raise the flop?
Smooth call this flop and then decide from the action on the flop and the Turn what to do.
But normally you would raise any card on the turn How is a K on the Turn gonna change anything?
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#6
03-12-2005, 11:08 AM
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Re: Wait until the turn or raise the flop?
How about call now, call the maniac's likely raise (and hope the BB sticks around), and then go for a check-raise on the turn? Even if he'd raise the turn, letting you 3-bet, you'd do at least as well this way if the BB will call on the turn (unless they both fold to your check-raise). Obviously it's hard to say how the action will go, but with a hand that's likely best and not that afraid of giving a free card (not because it'll beat you, but because the maniac usually won't take one), I really want to use the maniac's aggression against him, not the BB's.
If you call, and it goes raise-raise back to you, now you might as well just pour in bets until you get a good reason not to (i.e. check-bet-raise-3 bet by BB back to you). Disclaimer: I haven't had much coffee yet.
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#7
03-12-2005, 04:07 PM
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Re: Wait until the turn or raise the flop?
You all are right, a K really isn't gonna change much on the turn. I just figured on this board, the only thing I was worried about was a King (the only overcard that could fall that did not improve my hand)
Ok, second part then, I smooth call, maniac raises and BB-Re-raises. Time to cap, let them bet for me until the turn or start to get concerned BB really has something and maniac is going to make it expensive to find out? Vern Standard Disclaimer, I am by no means an expert at any of this.
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#9
03-12-2005, 04:36 PM
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Re: Wait until the turn or raise the flop?
[ QUOTE ]
How about call now, call the maniac's likely raise (and hope the BB sticks around), and then go for a check-raise on the turn? [/ QUOTE ] I think I swing this way. 3 BB on the flop. 6 BB on the turn and another 1-2 on the river. A raise might knock out your crazy button with some Ax hand. Let him pay big to chase 3 outs.
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#10
03-12-2005, 10:55 PM
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Re: Wait until the turn or raise the flop?
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, second part then, I smooth call, maniac raises and BB-Re-raises. Time to cap, let them bet for me until the turn or start to get concerned BB really has something and maniac is going to make it expensive to find out? [/ QUOTE ] I think I would continue waiting until the turn, planning to raise BB at that point. A call/cap on the flop would probably slow BB down, unless he has a monster, and I don't think you want to create a situation where he bets when he likely has you beat but checks many of the hands you're beating. In any event, though, if you cold-call the flop and then the turn action goes bet, raise, 3-bet, cap, that would be an uncomfortable situation. Having a maniac at the table does have its hazards. Getting trapped in 3-way pots with a maniac involved isn't much fun once you begin to suspect your hand is second best. But, anyway, I don't think you should be too worried yet, when the flop action comes back two bets to you. BB probably realizes Button is a maniac (the easiest thing to notice at the table is who the maniac is, when there is one). At this point, BB probably thinks you're clinging to JJ or something.
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