New to O8

Vern · #1 05-09-2005, 07:38 AM

I am using the PTO trial period and the Stars re-load to learn O8B. I have a fairly good understanding of the pre-flop game, but some things confuse me post flop.

Example: I get to see a free flop in the BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with 5 opponents, mostly loose/weak from what I can tell.

Flop comes Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] SB checks, I think a bet is the best move here with two pair. With two low on the board, I doubt many low drawers will fold to a check raise, so I want to make sure I charge with the likely best hand at the moment, or do I want to check and see because I have no draw other than to hit another Q or 3?

Vern

Ironman · #2 05-09-2005, 10:17 AM

Vern,

As far as I can tell, this hand is trouble. I would play this very slowly.

Almost half the deck remaining will put a low straight on the board (cards that people like to play).

I think I would check/call the flop (Don't worry...there will be a bet from the low draws here because of this flop. There won't be a free card.) and then if the turn is a blank (K, J, 10, 9, or 8) I would continue on to the river. Remember you still need to dodge a low river card.

There are two problems with the list above.

First, the king really isn't a safe card. Now someone has the potential for a higher two pair.

Second, the 8 brings the low side which takes away half the pot.

You really need a Q or a 3.

Can this hand sqeak through and win unimproved, sure. But if there is any jamming from the low side, you are in a tough spot.

There will be easier places to win money.

TGoldman · #3 05-09-2005, 11:35 AM

Welcome, maybe we saw each other at the O/8 tables during the Stars reload? I worked off the entire bonus at the 1/2 tables (A lot more O/8 pots qualify for FPP points).

I would check and fold this hand. I agree with Ironman -- this is a classic trap hand. Look at your situation here: You have no draw at the low and with two low cards on the board already you're likely going to be fighting for half of the pot. Of that half, you're only going to be happy if you can fill up and make your full house to which your a pretty big dog to do (Even then you must consider the possibility of a larger full house). You probably do have the best high hand right now, but this isn't Hold'em and there's no protecting your hand here. You're not going to be able to fold any nut low draws and those draws will likely have some kind of straight redraws. With that many people in the pot, nearly every turn and river card will look scary to you. Basically, you're giving the nut low draws a freeroll against you--you can't win the low side but you're giving them a "free" shot to win the high side away from you. Stay away from this situation and save your money for a better spot.

gergery · #4 05-09-2005, 04:14 PM

Hey Vern,

Welcome to O8. I agree with TGold and Ironman. I’d check and might call 1 bet if it came back around and I thought I could close the action. Top & bottom pair where the bottom pair is very low AND there are 2 low cards on board might be roughly equivalent in holdem to having 34 on a 378r board. You have some chances to win, but you don’t really like your hand and definitely don’t want to bet into 5 opponents at low limits.

--Greg

Buzz · #5 05-09-2005, 05:10 PM

Vern - I'd check and fold to a bet. You're most likely only playing for half the pot. Top and bottom pairs with low likely is not a good holding.

Notice that a six, which would give you a set, also enables a low straight, which would beat your set.

Then with a set plus two pairs, the number of river outs you'd have for making a full house or quads would be reduced from the usual 10 to only 8. And even if the board does pair in such a way as to give you a full house, there's no guarantee you'd hold the winning full house.

Two pair does sometimes win in this game, but with five opponents seeing the flop, you might not even have the best two pair.

I suppose you could see one more card and then get out if you didn't make a full house on the turn. Trouble is, at that point it would only be one more bet to see if you make a full house on the river - and then it's only one bet to see if your two pair was any good or not. (It's called chasing and is not recommended).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Vern · #6 05-09-2005, 06:02 PM

Thank you to all that took the time to respond. I think that was exactly the perspective I needed to hear as it was what my instinct was telling me even though I was trying to process the hand mentally as a Holdem hand. For what is worth, I did bet in this situation (this time) and it was two more back to me on the flop and I dropped it there. I guess what I am trying to get my brain around is on the flop it is better to have a good draw to the nuts than to have a strong hand at the moment that has little chance to improve. Sorta like reverse implied odds in Holdem but far more drastic. Thanks again.

Vern

PokerProdigy · #7 05-09-2005, 10:35 PM

I say check the flop, because there is a decent chance that you do NOT have best hand, or will get drawn out on. If you had some decent chance at a low hand with this two pair, then you could play, but since you don't I'd be prepared to check-fold the flop, and hope to see the turn for free and maybe improve.

Trainwreck · #8 05-10-2005, 07:10 PM

If you are just starting out with O8B, definitely play it for free for a couple hours first.

Yes, the betting will be like playing with broken raise buttons, but that is OK.

Beat this tomfoolery FIRST, then you are ready to go....

2 pair on a flop will need help the vast majority of the time and at LL, don't expect much folding and especially when you have no low draw, but two cards 3-8 are on the flop.

Q663 is a trash hand PF if not in the blind even if DS, IMHO.

O8B is a heavy draw game, right now your draw stinks.

>TW<

Vern · #9 05-10-2005, 08:46 PM

Yeah, I had played a lot of the free roll tournies on Stars O8B, so I no longer look at a single suited hand as just needing one of my suit to hit for the flush [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] and other things like that. In those tournies, I used Hutchinson's system for scoring. I play different from that now, depending on my opponents and position on them, but accodring to PTO I am about 22.5% VPIP. I need to play real money tables to work off the bonus, but I am not multitabling like I do at Holdem, yet. Thanks for the response though, they have all been helpful.

Vern

Ribbo · #10 05-11-2005, 07:56 AM

I also would check and fold for a bet. The problem with your hand is you are at best flipping a coin with any low draw hand, while having as little as 7% chance of winning against other high hands. You are in all likelyhood playing with 2 cards, in a 4 card game. Now if you had AQ23, then I would be telling you to raise.