AJs, should I be seeing this showdown?

iluzion · #1 08-27-2005, 01:31 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

MP1 ($26.48)
MP2 ($28.70)
MP3 ($26.20)
CO ($24.65)
Button ($22.45)
SB ($18.44)
BB ($7.90)
UTG ($12.25)
Hero ($23.80)
UTG+2 ($58.29)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.50, 3 folds, BB calls $0.25.

Flop: ($2.60) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $2, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, BB folds, UTG raises to $6, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($14.60) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villain pushes, Hero calls $5.75.

River: ($20.35) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $20.35

LethalRose · #2 08-27-2005, 01:32 AM

I fold preflop unless villian is a complete fish.

Godfather80 · #3 08-27-2005, 01:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop unless villian is a complete fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Hands that play out like this are exactly why you fold AJs in EP to a UTG raise (even a sh1tty min-raise).

DaveduFresne · #4 08-27-2005, 01:39 AM

I disagree, its fine to call as its likely more people will trail in and increase your implied odds. The problem is you have to be good enough to fold it even when you hit top pair, if you can't do this, then you do need to avoid it in early position.

Without reads, its an easy fold to his reraise, but if he's the type who might do it with an underpair you probably have to make the call. Against most of the gnits that seem to be accumulating online, its a fold.

fimbulwinter · #5 08-27-2005, 01:43 AM

fim

Godfather80 · #6 08-27-2005, 01:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree, its fine to call as its likely more people will trail in and increase your implied odds. The problem is you have to be good enough to fold it even when you hit top pair, if you can't do this, then you do need to avoid it in early position.

Without reads, its an easy fold to his reraise, but if he's the type who might do it with an underpair you probably have to make the call. Against most of the gnits that seem to be accumulating online, its a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we have a disagreement then. By playing AJs for a raise in EP, you need 1 of the following 2 things to happen in order to be profitable IN THE LONG RUN:
1. Everyone behind you to fold and have EP hold a pocket pair below TT giving you a near coinflip. This turns out a very slight profit.
2. Many players behind you to "trail in" giving you the pot odds you need, then flop a flush or flush draw, then hit your flush or flush draw, then get paid off. This is very unlikely.

I find neither of these possibilities particularly appetizing because so many things have to go your way. And if you have to lay down your top pair when facing strength, what is the point of playing it in the first place (I'm assuming you are talking about getting heads-up with UTG in this scenario).

Of course, in the short term, anything can happen, but in the long run this play is a loser.

fimbulwinter · #7 08-27-2005, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree, its fine to call as its likely more people will trail in and increase your implied odds. The problem is you have to be good enough to fold it even when you hit top pair, if you can't do this, then you do need to avoid it in early position.

Without reads, its an easy fold to his reraise, but if he's the type who might do it with an underpair you probably have to make the call. Against most of the gnits that seem to be accumulating online, its a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we have a disagreement then. By playing AJs for a raise in EP, you need 1 of the following 2 things to happen in order to be profitable IN THE LONG RUN:
1. Everyone behind you to fold and have EP hold a pocket pair below TT giving you a near coinflip. This turns out a very slight profit.
2. Many players behind you to "trail in" giving you the pot odds you need, then flop a flush or flush draw, then hit your flush or flush draw, then get paid off. This is very unlikely.

I find neither of these possibilities particularly appetizing because so many things have to go your way. And if you have to lay down your top pair when facing strength, what is the point of playing it in the first place (I'm assuming you are talking about getting heads-up with UTG in this scenario).

Of course, in the short term, anything can happen, but in the long run this play is a loser.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course you're right but in his defense this is one of those things that is very easy to overestimatethe profitability of. it's not the type of leakthat jumps out at you.

fim

Godfather80 · #8 08-27-2005, 02:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree, its fine to call as its likely more people will trail in and increase your implied odds. The problem is you have to be good enough to fold it even when you hit top pair, if you can't do this, then you do need to avoid it in early position.

Without reads, its an easy fold to his reraise, but if he's the type who might do it with an underpair you probably have to make the call. Against most of the gnits that seem to be accumulating online, its a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we have a disagreement then. By playing AJs for a raise in EP, you need 1 of the following 2 things to happen in order to be profitable IN THE LONG RUN:
1. Everyone behind you to fold and have EP hold a pocket pair below TT giving you a near coinflip. This turns out a very slight profit.
2. Many players behind you to "trail in" giving you the pot odds you need, then flop a flush or flush draw, then hit your flush or flush draw, then get paid off. This is very unlikely.

I find neither of these possibilities particularly appetizing because so many things have to go your way. And if you have to lay down your top pair when facing strength, what is the point of playing it in the first place (I'm assuming you are talking about getting heads-up with UTG in this scenario).

Of course, in the short term, anything can happen, but in the long run this play is a loser.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course you're right but in his defense this is one of those things that is very easy to overestimatethe profitability of. it's not the type of leakthat jumps out at you.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

You made my day. Thanks. My thinking about the game is often flawed, but sometimes I have short spurts of clarity.

Isura · #9 08-27-2005, 04:05 AM

Villain check/raised the flop for 1/2 his stack... He's not going anywhere. I fold to the flop check/raise.

DaveduFresne · #10 09-01-2005, 06:50 AM

Sorry to ressurect this thread, but never saw some responses to my reply until now.

Did you guys who told me calling in ep with AJ suited is a leak notice the raise was only double the blind? This is hardly a leak, especially at such a low limit where you have a good chance of your two pairs, straights, and flushes paid off. A real sized raise I would agree with you (ie 4 or 5 BB), but call those pot sweeteners unless your table has a lot of aggressive preflop players acting after you.

Once again though, you have to know your players and the value of hands in a given game. In a live game most of the time, AJ is a fairly big hand because you have a decent chance of getting called down with Ace no kicker. Online, you're mostly playing it for two pair or better value, because A10 just isn't calling you all in unless he's a complete donk.

Still even online, especially suited, it does have value, you just have to know that hitting your Ace can get you into trouble.