It all started with a loose call

Throxx · #1 04-17-2005, 02:17 PM

First post.

Pacific Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

BB had been losing to marginal hands i.e what was he betting?
MP1 had been raising preflop with lots of stuff, e.g. suited Ace small, KJ suited, medium pairs,...
I've been treading water for a while. When showing I've had good cards.

Button ($53.8)
SB ($49.5)
BB ($16.15)
UTG ($27.75)
UTG+1 ($198.84)
Hero ($34.82)
MP1 ($94.03)
MP2 ($42.13)
MP3 ($16.75)
CO ($36.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, Hero calls $0.50, MP1 raises to $2, 5 folds, BB calls $1.50, Hero calls $1.50.

Have been folding forever so make marginal call to enter pot, speculative call of the raise thinking that I would fold A6 suited
unless it hits flop hard against the hands usually played by MP1 and BB.

Flop: ($6.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets $3, BB raises to $14.15, Hero ?

I got what I wanted.
I check planning to raise the pre flop raiser's bet into the flop. I think he could have a lot of different hands.

BB complicates things but have very strong feeling that
BB's check raise is "I finally got an Ace" move all in.
Don't think he would bet everything with AA, JJ or 66 sets, or AJ but he might being short stacked.

I'm behind:
AA (MP1 only, BB woould have reraised preflop?), JJ and 66 sets, AJ top two pair
If I'm behind, I have only 2 outs.

I'm ahead now of some of hands BB and MP1 might have:
AK, AQ, .... Ax plus high and medium pairs for MP1
The A7 and above hands have 2 outs to beat my underpair sixes.
Pairs have 2 outs to make set.
If I'm ahead, two opponents have 2 outs.

My mind is turning over (a lot more organized after the fact):

Pot is $23. BB is all in, so I'm heads up out of position on MP1.
I should:

Raise - given my smallish stack seems all in seems the only raise to consider
but called only by better hands?,or
Call -

A. MP1 folds - Ok by me; his AK, TT, ... no good
B. MP1 reraises - I guess I fold but if he has winner why push me out now? Would it be a bluff?
C. MP1 calls (Pot will be about $40 - I will have about $20, MP1 about $80)
(i) I check/fold to MP1 bet on turn (he wouldn't call my flop with hand worse than mine? Fold even if I get 3:1?)
(ii) I check/call(any reasonable bet will put me all in) turn (He would bet with hand worse than mine? 3:1 is good enough to try even if behnd?)
(iii) I check/check behind on turn and go to river.
(a) I only get to river with a choice if turn was checked around.
Here I check/call? I'm getting 3:1. Is check behind by MP1 a trap or weakness?

(iv) I get aggressive and bet turn all in (Pot is now about $60) (He will call flop and turn with hand worse than mine?)
(a) I figure he calls wtih 3:1 odds if he stayed this far.
Fold - my read of BB may be wrong, and MP1 behind and yet to go may have a good hand.
I could beat one but probably not both?

The timer goes off as I'm slowly and indecisively working through the scenarios,so I'm folded.
Now I'm having second thoughts that [Call flop bet to see if MP1 stays around - if he does, check/fold I'm beat] (2)(C)(i) may have been the
right thing to do to give me a chance to win, but this may be just regrets about being too passive.

I took a flyer to see the flop, got what I asked for but it got complicated (or I thought it too complicated)
and I ended up not knowing what to do :-(

I need some help thinking about this kind of situation so I don't default next time.

Thanks,
MFM

[Forum tech ?
How does one get indenting for outlining to work? I tried
Code:<hr /><pre></pre><hr />
but it didn't seem to want to handle lists within lists - sorry]

tdarko · #2 04-17-2005, 02:31 PM

i love how first posts are always your longest and most detailed.

with my experiences in that game i wouldn't get away from that hand, if the re-raiser was the big stack maybe.

i put BB on a big Ace and you take the pot down.

TrailofTears · #3 04-17-2005, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i love how first posts are always your longest and most detailed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either that or they are absolute crap. As a regular, I like to see new guys with some courtesy. However, I have to admit that I didn't read much past the reads and the hand itself... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

As for the hand, I think raising is nice to isolate. I think calling is nice because if PRFer wants to stick around with a big ace or an underpair, that is fine by me as he is likely drawing to 2 or 3 outs. I think I would raise though, because in total I would rather dodge three outs than six, and there are a lot of cards that could come and scare you.

-Trail

p.s. Welcome to the forums!

Throxx · #4 04-17-2005, 10:40 PM

Thanks for the welcome.

The BB is all in so I'm already heads up with MP1 behind me yet to act.

The short version is I was trying to figure out beforehand what it would take from MP1 acting after me to change my mind that my hand was good and worth ending up all in. I suppose with my stack it wasn't worth that much thinking since I get all in pretty easily here.

If I had more money and was raised I guess I would have to judge whether it was a bluff, I was the one with few outs or whether I was stiil good.

Anyway, I second guessed myself for too long and let the clock run out. Not used to not being able to say "time".

Thanks again for the responses.
<terseness=on> :-)

MFM

TreyOfLight · #5 04-18-2005, 09:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if PRFer wants to stick around with a big ace ... he is likely drawing to 2 or 3 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jack or turn can pair

The_Bends · #6 04-18-2005, 10:00 AM

Nice first post.

I'd push this all in every time. Your hand is strong but I wouldn't want two hands drawing against it. My guess is that MP1 is chucking out a continuity bet with a decent PP and BB has a strong A, probably AQ.

jkkkk · #7 04-18-2005, 10:11 AM

i don't think i can get away from this hand against a fishy NL $25 player