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  #1  
Old 12-18-2005, 04:15 PM
joewatch joewatch is offline
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Posts: 152
Default AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

A bit of trouble here. I should have folded to the first raise, but now that it has come around, what's my play?

Not sure how much of this applies, but here's a link to my last post regarding AAxx. http://tinyurl.com/767vu

***** Hand History for Game 3218749405 *****
$100 PL Omaha - Saturday, December 17, 20:27:33 EDT 2005
Table Table 65888 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 7

Seat 9: MP3 ( $33.76 )
Seat 10: CO = LAG ( $592.95 )
Seat 2: Hero SB ( $193.80 )
Seat 8: MP2 ( $33.51 )

Preflop: Hero posts small blind [$0.50], Dealt to Hero 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , MP1 calls [$1], MP2 calls [$1], MP3 calls [$1], Villain raises [$6.50], Button folds, Hero calls [$6], BB folds, MP1 calls [$5.50], MP2 raises [$11], MP3 calls [$11], Villain raises [$28.50],
Hero??? (reraise would be to $136.50)
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  #2  
Old 12-18-2005, 04:54 PM
parre parre is offline
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Default Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

I say pot and pray. You can't fold aces in comparatively shallow online games when you have the chance to go all-in preflop (or - make a raise that totally committs you).

Sure, I could see an argument made for being a bit tricky and just calling planning to push all flops, but i say put it in and gamble it up.

After all, you probably have a live straight flush-draw with the 54 of spades. If all else fails, make a straight flush.
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  #3  
Old 12-18-2005, 05:00 PM
RickyG RickyG is offline
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Location: Chicago, IL
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Default Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

We know two things here:

Villain is a LAG with lots of money,
MP2 is short stacked.

I assume that MP2 has noticed that the raisor is also a LAG, so he might be trying to make a play here with a good holding, but not necesarily one that beats AA. And why wouldnt MP2 push here instead of min raising? It seems that the obvious move for him with AA would be to push since he only has $33 at the start of the hand. So, I am confortable in saying that he problably doesnt have aces but has some good-ish hand, hopefully with a high pair.

This leaves the question of the villain. Since you describe him as LAG I assume that he likes to gamble, also has some sort of quality-ish hand, and wants to take mp2 out. You and MP1 have shown no strength so far, so he probably does not consider you a risk. Plus, you would need a damned good hand to call a raise and a reraise. I wouldnt be to surprised to see two hands with lower pairs than yours, and maybe a run of cards by the villain.

I say you have to push in this situation.
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  #4  
Old 12-18-2005, 05:01 PM
RickyG RickyG is offline
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Default Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

[ QUOTE ]
If all else fails, make a straight flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent advice.
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  #5  
Old 12-18-2005, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

[ QUOTE ]
I should have folded to the first raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? You have a pretty crappy A-A-x-x hand, but if you aren't willing to call off 3% of your stack to spike an Ace ....

I know that Rolf's article suggested that with a healthy stack such as your's raggedy big pairs can be trouble, but come on man...

[ QUOTE ]
but now that it has come around, what's my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can get 70% of your stack in, making position and all subsequent decisions moot. I push. If you get called by the big stack, you are putting in the rest of your stack regardless. A call by the big stack also gives you 2 chances to win. One in the 4-way main pot where your pre-flop equity probably isn't the greatest and 1 in the heads-up side-pot where you are very likely to have a pre-flop equity edge.
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  #6  
Old 12-18-2005, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

What's the most you have to fear from the LAG?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1411846
pokenum -mc 500000 -o ac ah 5s 4s - as ad js td
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5s 4s Ac Ah 100438 20.09 172035 34.41 227527 45.51 0.428
As Js Ad Td 172035 34.41 100438 20.09 227527 45.51 0.572

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1411857
pokenum -mc 500000 -o ac ah 5s 4s - jd td 9s 8s
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5s 4s Ac Ah 246827 49.37 253173 50.63 0 0.00 0.494
9s 8s Jd Td 253173 50.63 246827 49.37 0 0.00 0.506
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  #7  
Old 12-18-2005, 08:34 PM
Unabridged Unabridged is offline
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Default Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

what kind of player is MP2? a reg stack who just lost a big hand or a short stack that tries to get all in preflop.
i think MP2 has AA, he minraises because he wants everyone to stay in and has a feeling Villian will repot.

but even so, you have to push here because you are dominating any other big pair and not worse than 40/60 against a strong wrap
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  #8  
Old 12-18-2005, 10:01 PM
joewatch joewatch is offline
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Posts: 152
Default Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

[ QUOTE ]
what kind of player is MP2? a reg stack who just lost a big hand or a short stack that tries to get all in preflop.
i think MP2 has AA, he minraises because he wants everyone to stay in and has a feeling Villian will repot.

but even so, you have to push here because you are dominating any other big pair and not worse than 40/60 against a strong wrap

[/ QUOTE ]

MP2 and MP3 were just bad Party monkeys.
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  #9  
Old 12-18-2005, 11:03 PM
liquid liquid is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 45
Default Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

Absolutely push. Even if shorty has AAxx, the main pot is no longer your main concern. LAG is looking to isolate (although his bet size is puzzling) and you have an excellent opportunity to build a big side pot w/good equity.

Reminded me of this'n from last month:

$100 PLO
Seat 5: LAG (Button, $164.70)
Seat 7: Hero (SB, $144.25) [Kd Ad 5h As]
Seat 9: Shorty (UTG, $26.25)

2 folds, 2 calls, LAG raises $6 to $7, Hero calls $6.50, 1 fold, Shorty raises $19.25 to $26.25 and is all-in, 2 folds, LAG raises $63 to $89.25, Hero raises $55 to $144.25 and is all-in, LAG calls $55.

As it turned out it was a near worst-case scenario for the main pot. Shorty did in fact have AAxx. LAG + Shorty had 3 of my diamonds, ruining what should have been my one strong side card. A world of hurt 3-way:

pokenum -mc 500000 -o kd ad 5h as - 6c 6d 4d 3d - 8d ah 8c ac
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ad Kd 5h 74911 14.98 289763 57.95 135326 27.07 0.285
6c 6d 4d 3d 153178 30.64 346822 69.36 0 0.00 0.306
Ac 8c 8d Ah 136585 27.32 228089 45.62 135326 27.07 0.408

But the $236 side pot is a different story (note that I included Shorty's hand as dead cards):

pokenum -mc 500000 -o kd ad 5h as - 6c 6d 4d 3d / 8d ah 8c ac
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ad Kd 5h 303417 60.68 196583 39.32 0 0.00 0.607
6c 6d 4d 3d 196583 39.32 303417 60.68 0 0.00 0.393

p.s. LAG spiked a 6 and scooped.
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  #10  
Old 12-19-2005, 12:12 AM
joewatch joewatch is offline
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Posts: 152
Default Re: AA-rag OOP vs. deep stack and short stacks

These kinds of numbers always confuse me. How is it possible that your EV is less than somebody else's in the main pot, but more in the side pot despite the dead cards? Maths guys, please explain.
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