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  #21  
Old 11-28-2005, 02:34 AM
Joe Tall Joe Tall is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

[ QUOTE ]
If anything I should have folded this hand preflop. I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite

[/ QUOTE ]

There must have been some really really bad players if you were going to fold this preflop. It's an absolute must raise w/the extra blind in this situation, a must.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2005, 02:50 AM
elindauer elindauer is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

How can you think about anything but a call? You have a clean draw to the absolute nuts with correct odds to draw. I don't think there will be much debate on this hand.

You can call all turn bets and fold the river unless you have the absolute nuts and still turn a profit. In fact, this is probably exactly waht you should do.

good luck.
eric
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2005, 02:52 AM
mterry mterry is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

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I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do other people avoid pushing situations with potentially small edges when they are a significantly better player than everyone at the table? Shouldn't that type of variance reduction be reserved for tournaments?

Mike
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  #24  
Old 11-28-2005, 02:54 AM
lil feller lil feller is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

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I was clearly the best player at the table and thought I would be better suited getting my money into another pot where I would be much more of a favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something a tournament player would say. Don't take this the wrong way, as it isn't meant to be insulting, but limit hold'em cash games are about making the play with the highest EV at all times, not avoiding the marginal ones and waiting for just the big ones. This certainly creates more variance, but is the only way to maximize your winrate. If you're truly serious about becoming an expert limit holdem player, I suggest you get out of the tournament "wait for a better spot" mentality, honestly and accurately evaluate every situation, and exploit every +EV situation to its fullest potential.

This hand against a field this horrible is certainly +EV, and so is calling the turn, even against a set. Assume the same pot size in terms of big bets (not dollars)/action, would you have called if it weren't a kill pot?

lf

EDIT cuz I suck at typing
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  #25  
Old 11-28-2005, 02:58 AM
nolanfan34 nolanfan34 is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

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Must raise preflop, you have what is likely the best hand, there is a lot of dead money out there and can buy the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are those tables passive enough that we're not worried about someone limping with KQ or KJ there?
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  #26  
Old 11-28-2005, 03:00 AM
elindauer elindauer is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

i'd guess this type of play is due to the supersized nature of the bets making people a little gunshy to push their edges, especially for players that like the confidence boost of recording a win.

That said, I don't think limping KTs is the huge mistake it is being made out to be in this thread. After all, would you raise K9s? I'm guessing that no one would. If so, you are practically forced to admit that KTs must be very close either way. KJs? ok, now I'd say a raise is best. KQs? This is about where I would say just limping is wrong.
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  #27  
Old 11-28-2005, 03:03 AM
shemp shemp is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

There's a word for winning 35 bets in a few hours: RunningGood. Yes. Yes. I know they were fools. And Yes. Yes. You don't toot your own horn so much as I don't understand how horrible these players are. If you think you can routinely pass up 5:1 on a 4:1 proposition with implied odds somewhere around 6:1 because of your dominance of the field, you're nuts. Not THE NUTS. But nuts.
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  #28  
Old 11-28-2005, 03:04 AM
elindauer elindauer is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

[ QUOTE ]
Must raise preflop, you have what is likely the best hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

KTs? Likely best hand? 3 random hands still out, plus a couple limpers, and king-high-no-kicker is taking down best hand honors already? Hmmm.

I agree that raising is acceptable. In my opinion, limping is too, especially if the kill pot encourages people to just limp with hands like AK, KQ...

I don't have lots of live experience with kill pots, but I suspect they cause people to play a little differently than normal.

-Eric
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2005, 03:06 AM
heykev heykev is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

I am definitely an established cash player and you make a very good point about if it wasn't a kill. I agree now after looking back that I was getting the right EV, but I also feel good about folding because if you are not able to make a big laydown or fold a draw sometimes you are not really putting everything you can into your game. I know your response is going to be that laying down a draw with the right EV can never really be correct but I am not totally upset with my laydown whether the spade hit or not. I understand what you mean by the tournament mentality but I think it is OK to bring that thinking over to limit based on all the new players at the tables.
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2005, 03:08 AM
heykev heykev is offline
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Default Re: KTs in a kill pot 5/10@FW

The more and more I think about it I should have called.
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