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  #1  
Old 07-09-2005, 12:52 AM
ajmargarine ajmargarine is offline
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Default Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

Two things to know about this hand:

1. The hand previous to this, I won about $85 with AA when I flopped a set, that turned into a boat against a single opponent, not the villian. Don't know if it's relevant, but will just point it out.

2. About 10 hands previous, villian was in MP facing a 3xBB preflop raise, and he reraised 3x that with 10-10. Otherwise he has been somewhat passive at the table.

The hand: (sorry, converter doesn't work for my site)

$1/$2 blinds NLHE
Hero UTG ($280)
Villian UTG+1 ($120)

Dealt to Hero K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero UTG raises 3xBB to $6
Villian UTG+1 raises to $20
all others fold
Hero calls $14

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

(pot $43) Hero checks, Villian bets $30, Hero folds.

PS As I finished typing this I realized why point #1 was relevant at the time. But, I would like to hear other's thoughts first before I reveal my results orientated thinking, although you can probably guess.
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  #2  
Old 07-09-2005, 01:07 AM
Hoopster81 Hoopster81 is offline
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Default Re: Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

No, I don't
No, I can't
No, I wouldn't

He's so short-stacked, I don't know if there is any line that you can get away from this hand. Lead the flop and fold to all-in? Maybe, but I'm probably calling anyways...
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  #3  
Old 07-09-2005, 02:13 AM
Cooker Cooker is offline
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Default Re: Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

Why did't you move in preflop? Odds are he will call you with whatever he has and if he will play only pocket pairs TT and up this way, Baye's theorm makes it about 3 to 1 against him having Aces. If he will even play some more hands like AK and 99 this way (I often even run into players that raise and even reraise any PP) then you are doing even better.

I probably go ahead and call the all in on the flop and pray for him to turn up AK, QQ, or the other 2 kings.
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  #4  
Old 07-09-2005, 02:28 AM
anacrime anacrime is offline
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Default Re: Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

First off, I don't see where Cooker is getting the "call the flop all-in" business. Did I miss something?

Anyway, I don't like your raise preflop. If you're going to raise, might as well make it ATLEAST 4xBB. Generally, I like to raise a little more with KK because I know some idiots will call with a weak ace and get lucky.

I like leading out on the flop. By checking, you're inviting him to bluff. I even like check-raising in this situation. Especially if you put him all in. He couldn't call it with AK or worse. He only thing he'd call it with is JJJ, 101010, 999, KK, or AA. Most of the time you'll be ahead on the flop. If he does have a set, you still have your gut shot and counter-set draws (a grand total of 6 outs).
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  #5  
Old 07-09-2005, 02:42 AM
ajmargarine ajmargarine is offline
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Default Re: Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

[ QUOTE ]
Why did't you move in preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I was being a wuss. I was +$160 on the session at that point in only about 30 minutes (I was only one tabling at this time), and was going to be leaving shortly. He was passive, and so I am thinking, win a nice medium sized pot after the flop. But this flop was the worst possible flop to have for the range of hands I was about 80% certain he had.
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  #6  
Old 07-09-2005, 03:04 AM
ajmargarine ajmargarine is offline
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Default Re: Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, I don't like your raise preflop. If you're going to raise, might as well make it ATLEAST 4xBB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I vary my preflop raises when I open, randomly between 2.5 and 5 times the BB. I do not vary them based upon the strength of my holding, nor should you. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I like leading out on the flop. By checking, you're inviting him to bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

My read on this guy (passive), combined with my table image to him at the time told me the chances of him taking a chance and bluffing at me were pretty slim. Plus $30 was a nice sized bet for him. He bought in for $50 shortly after I got there, and doubled up with those 10's and won another recent pot to get to that $120. So $30 to this guy I read as a non bluff bet. (I had never played with him before this)
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  #7  
Old 07-09-2005, 03:09 AM
raisethatmofo raisethatmofo is offline
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Default Re: Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

You have to stop thinking about how much you are up each session. That will only lead you down a road toward losing poker. You have to play each hand the way it should be played. I like reraising all-in preflop. He's putting $20 dollars on the table. I don't see anything wrong with raising all-in on the flop either. You got KK vs one opponent. That is like a monster. No ace on the flop either. He could have AK, AQ , AJ, anything. I'm putting him on AJ actually. You had him.
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  #8  
Old 07-09-2005, 05:17 AM
savman savman is offline
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Default Re: Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm putting him on AJ actually. You had him.

[/ QUOTE ]

?
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  #9  
Old 07-09-2005, 05:51 AM
Packerfan Packerfan is offline
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Default Re: Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

Just reading this is making me sick to my stomach.
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  #10  
Old 07-09-2005, 07:36 AM
MTBlue MTBlue is offline
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Default Re: Do you/Can you/Would you fold KK here?

Raise all-in preflop. If he's a standard 1/2 NL reraiser he won't fold any type of hand. My personal favorite was the guy who minreraised my raise to 14 with t9h and when I moved all-in with AA, he called his remaining 185 instantly LMAO.

On the flop you've got six outs against every hand that he is beating you with (4 Q and 2K )and blockers to his QQ. Just get all-in on the flop and hope for the best. AK or QQ is just as likely as JJ TT AA. 8 Combinations of AK and 6 of QQ =14. AA six combinations 3 jj 3 tt= 12 combinations. 14:12 you have him beat assuming he always puts in a continuation bet. Now at showdown both AK and QQ are going to beat you roughly 30% of the time. You are going to beat AA JJ TT roughly 25% of the time. This would changes the odds to 9.4 to 9 which means you will win this matchup slightly more than half the time. Basically the idea is to keep something like AK or QQ betting as long possible b/c against these two hands you are a favorite and you will be against them at least 1/2 the time (14:12)

Raising the flop is a poor idea b/c it lets these hands of easy. You may want to consider a passive calling route while folding to an A or 8 on the turn or river. If you hit your King on the turn call and only raise if you fill up on the river. If your opponent does not have QQ. He has to suspect QQ to be a your likely holding . If the Queen falls on the turn I think an argument can be made for getting all the money in, but a better route might be to wait until the river and raise only if the board doesn't pair. Its 15:8 after the queens falls that you opponent is not holding AK (6 combinations AA + 3 QQ + 3 JJ+ 3 TT= 15) Which means if you raise the river all-in and get called you will be profitably over 60% of time. If checked to on the turn check behind-- no point in being check raised off your draws when your opponent has a set.

The general idea is to rope-a-dope the hands that you beat while conserving money against the ones that have dominated.
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