Ed Miller and Lee Jones play a hand

[spurgeon]

Here is my understanding of how Ed Miller and Lee Jones would play a sample hand. You are in middle position with K-J of clubs. Two players limp in what should you do? 1) Ed Miller. Raise. K-J suited is a strong hand in this position. Raise for value. 2) Lee Jones. Call. You have a suited trouble hand. The flop comes down 10 of hearts 9 of clubs 5 of diamonds. Three people check and one bets. What should you do? 1) Ed Miller: Raise. If you knock out some players it will improve your winning chances. If you knock out a player or two, you increase your chances that you will win if you catch a King or a Jack. 2) Lee Jones: Fold or call. Most of time you will fold since you missed the flop. However, if you are getting the proper odds for the gutshot draw you can call. The turn comes 3 of diamonds. What should you do? 1) Ed Miller: Bet. 2) Lee Jones: Actually, I think Lee Jones would bet his gutshot here as well if he were still in the hand. The river is a Jack of diamonds. 1) Ed Miller: Bet. You have top pair with a high kicker, bet your hand. 2) Lee Jones: You know I think Jones might bet here as well. Conclusion: 1) The preflop play of both authors is about the same. Both say to play very tight before the flop and not to call raises when you are dominated. If you have K-J and someone raises you will usually fold. However, Miller says to raise with the big suited cards. He will raise with K-J, A-10, A-J suited etc. Jones will call with these hands. 2) The flop play is different. Miller says raise and Jones says fold for the most part. 3) The River: Miller says to call on the river if the pot is big, you just cannot be sure you are beaten to fold. Jones, actually says the same thing. I do not have his book with me right now but he says to call on the river in a large pot. In fact, Jones quotes his mentor who says, "Throw those chips in the middle on the river." Both authors are similar, but Miller is more aggressive on the flop.

[ptmusic]

I'm pretty sure Jones recommends raising KJs in mid position preflop. Otherwise, I agree with your assesment.

-ptmusic

[JoshuaD]

If you added some whitespace to your post it would make it alot more readable.

What you said in your post seems pretty much correct, but I don't see the relevence.

[Wada]

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If you added some whitespace to your post it would make it alot more readable.

What you said in your post seems pretty much correct, but I don't see the relevence.

[/ QUOTE ]

[oLyphant]

i dont really understand why you put this up..

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
If you added some whitespace to your post it would make it alot more readable.

What you said in your post seems pretty much correct, but I don't see the relevence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he might be saying that while Jones isn't as aggressive as Miller, he's not as ridiculously weak as many here make him out to be.

[flair1239]

IMO, the Jones book is usually taken completely out of context on these forums.

It is admitedly a beginners book. It teaches a defensive style that is designed to keep beginning players out of trouble but also allow them to be profitable, in a short period of time.

Jones never claims that it is a end-all-be-all book. He stresses several times that it is only a starting point. Thorughout the book he will say things like "For expert players this might be profitable, but you are not missing much by passing it up.".

I think Jones's book accomplishes it's purpose.

[TomBrooks]

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how Lee Jones would play a ... middle position with K-J of clubs. Two players limp in what should you do? Jones: Call.

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Correct. Jones calls with KXs down to K8s. Pg 44

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The flop comes down 10 of hearts 9 of clubs 5 of diamonds. Three people check and one bets. What should you do? Lee Jones: Fold or call. Most of time you will fold since you missed the flop. However, if you are getting the proper odds for the gutshot draw you can call.

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(6SB(by my calcs of your example)) Jones would definately call getting correct odds for the gutshot. I'm not sure if he would call in this situation because it looks to me like you got 6SB in the pot here and Jones requires the pot to be large to call if your not getting odds to the gutshot. His second requirement is that you have an overcard to the flop and/or a backdoor (flush?) draw. You have the overcard King plus a gutshot which will come in about twice as much as a backdoor flush draw. But if the pot was 6SB, I'm not sure if he calls. I think so, though. Pg.77

=TomBk
(Pg Nos. refer to 2nd Ed.)

[Saggitarius]

No! Jones recomends to raise with KJs in Middle Position and call with KJo.

[TomBrooks]

Right Saggitarius, I missed that. Jones recommends a raise with KJs and a call with KTs to K8s.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many places where Jones in LLHE and Miller in SSH significantly contradict each other. On some plays where Jones's recommendation is weaker and/or tighter, he acknowledges a different play could be +EV but states the edge is small and encourages the beginner not to go down that path without more knowledge and experience.