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  #21  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:08 AM
tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

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Just because it's politically inconvenient for you doesn't change its meaning or give you the authority to rewrite it to better suit your own political agenda.

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Pay your taxes, effectively. Hey, I pay mine.

I don't see where Jesus said "force others to pay taxes."

He said "do unto others as you would have done to you." I don't know many people that like being forced to do things. I certainly don't. But I do know lots of people (including myself) that like being helped. Therefore, I should help others, but not force other people to do things they don't want to do.
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  #22  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:11 AM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

[ QUOTE ]

If we're going to talk about this issue, we should also talk about Jesus' teachings on taxation.

Jesus was emphatically NOT against taxation -- even paying taxes to the brutal Roman government that ultimately crucified him and persecuted his followers.

Think about that.

His central teaching was "render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's, and unto God that which is God's".

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The context here is key: the Pharisees sought to trick Jesus into publicly denying the authority of Rome. They knew Jesus put the authority of God first and foremost, and above the authority of Caesar. So, they sent a lawyer-type to inveigle Jesus into making a statement for which they could have him arrested and executed. Jesus, however, perceived the attempted trickery and answered wisely, segregating in his reply the things of God from the things of Caesar, so that he did not thereby deny the authority of Caesar. When the Sadducee asked Jesus if it was lawful for Jews to pay tax to Caesar (the Jews considered God, not Caesar, to be their Lord), Jesus asked the Sadducee to hold up a coin, and asked him, whose likeness is on that coin? The Sadducee answered, "Caesar's", whereupon Jesus replied, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

So Jesus' statement may be taken more as a declaration of the compartmentalization of two distinct realms, than as an outright endorsement of taxation or tribute.

For a much more detailed explanation of this, from a religious scholar and true believer's perspective, here is a link I found:

http://www.hiscovenantministries.org...e/romans_2.htm
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  #23  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:14 AM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

Thank you.
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  #24  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:29 AM
QuadsOverQuads QuadsOverQuads is offline
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

So, M, just to be clear : the entire lesson you glean from this passage is that Jesus knew how to engage in tricky wordplay? No example of his philosophy? No guidance for his followers? Just clever verbal gamesmanship?

I rest my case.

You are not interested in hearing Jesus' teachings, let alone following them.


q/q
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  #25  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:50 AM
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

Please excuse my .02 dropping in here, but that's not the way I read 6M's post. I thought it was quite clear and, as a Christian, expressed my own personal understanding of the story.
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  #26  
Old 12-23-2005, 02:20 AM
bobman0330 bobman0330 is offline
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

[ QUOTE ]
So, M, just to be clear : the entire lesson you glean from this passage is that Jesus knew how to engage in tricky wordplay? No example of his philosophy? No guidance for his followers? Just clever verbal gamesmanship?

I rest my case.

You are not interested in hearing Jesus' teachings, let alone following them.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, the notion that M described, that politics and religion occupy two distinct realms, is actually one of the most important developments in the history of religion, not "clever verbal gamesmanship."
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  #27  
Old 12-23-2005, 02:24 AM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

Don't argue with Quads, he's the freakin pope. With final authority over biblical interpretation.
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  #28  
Old 12-23-2005, 03:04 AM
BCPVP BCPVP is offline
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

[ QUOTE ]
So, M, just to be clear : the entire lesson you glean from this passage is that Jesus knew how to engage in tricky wordplay? No example of his philosophy? No guidance for his followers? Just clever verbal gamesmanship?

I rest my case.

You are not interested in hearing Jesus' teachings, let alone following them.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this thought hasn't crossed your mind but maybe it should. Perhaps you're the one trying to use Jesus' teachings to suit your personal agenda?
Source
[ QUOTE ]
Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s


Keep politics separate from certain other fields, such as religion. This is part of a saying of Jesus in the Gospels; the full version is “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #29  
Old 12-23-2005, 03:39 AM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

[ QUOTE ]

So, M, just to be clear : the entire lesson you glean from this passage is that Jesus knew how to engage in tricky wordplay? No example of his philosophy? No guidance for his followers? Just clever verbal gamesmanship?

I rest my case.

You are not interested in hearing Jesus' teachings, let alone following them.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]


q/q, begging your pardon, but I'm afraid you really do not know what you are talking about here.

Jesus was saying that the things of Caesar belong to Caesar, and the things of God belong to God--and that mankind should respect that distinction and render all things in their appropriate places.

Jesus was not condemning taxation, nor was he endorsing it: rather, he rhetorically asked if coin was in the realm of Caesar, and stated that the things of Caesar's should be rendered unto him.

One might also suggest he was implying several things:

1) that Jesus himself would not resist taxation or tribute to Caesar

2) that money and taxation are not of God's realm, but are rather of the worldly realm.

I would gently suggest that you do a bit more reading on this before being so certain of your interpretation. I have read in numerous places of this matter, and all readings point to an explanation rather similar to what I am describing to you, rather than your interpretation. Also, if you simply take HIS words literally, there is no direct mention of taxation. The Sadducee is the one who mentioned taxation: Jesus only stated that the things of Caesar should be rendered to Caesar.

You are also taking Jesus' words out of context, and moreover you are taking them as an explicit endorsement or advocation of taxation or tribute, which is not accurate. Rather, Jesus was emphasizing the difference between the wordly and the spiritual, and saying: to each belongs, and and should go, its own.

This is a lot deeper concept than merely being wordplay. Actually, it goes even deeper than what is described above (in the much larger spiritual sense), but that aspect is not really germane to this discussion.
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  #30  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:19 PM
tomdemaine tomdemaine is offline
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Default Re: Is libertarianism at odds with Christianity?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, M, just to be clear : the entire lesson you glean from this passage is that Jesus knew how to engage in tricky wordplay? No example of his philosophy? No guidance for his followers? Just clever verbal gamesmanship?

I rest my case.

You are not interested in hearing Jesus' teachings, let alone following them.


q/q

[/ QUOTE ]


q/q, begging your pardon, but I'm afraid you really do not know what you are talking about here.

Jesus was saying that the things of Caesar belong to Caesar, and the things of God belong to God--and that mankind should respect that distinction and render all things in their appropriate places.

Jesus was not condemning taxation, nor was he endorsing it: rather, he rhetorically asked if coin was in the realm of Caesar, and stated that the things of Caesar's should be rendered unto him.

One might also suggest he was implying several things:

1) that Jesus himself would not resist taxation or tribute to Caesar

2) that money and taxation are not of God's realm, but are rather of the worldly realm.

I would gently suggest that you do a bit more reading on this before being so certain of your interpretation. I have read in numerous places of this matter, and all readings point to an explanation rather similar to what I am describing to you, rather than your interpretation. Also, if you simply take HIS words literally, there is no direct mention of taxation. The Sadducee is the one who mentioned taxation: Jesus only stated that the things of Caesar should be rendered to Caesar.

You are also taking Jesus' words out of context, and moreover you are taking them as an explicit endorsement or advocation of taxation or tribute, which is not accurate. Rather, Jesus was emphasizing the difference between the wordly and the spiritual, and saying: to each belongs, and and should go, its own.

This is a lot deeper concept than merely being wordplay. Actually, it goes even deeper than what is described above (in the much larger spiritual sense), but that aspect is not really germane to this discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's clearly a church and state issue. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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