why do i do this? How do I stop?

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
Well he limped preflop so I don't put him on a big pair or big ace, then he checks flop but reraises the turn on a baby club, hmm smaller set protecting or maybe two pair, finally he reraises on river but not enough that I'm thinking bluff-more like value bet with nuts.

Sure maybe fear played some role in it-but I think logically its either a smaller set, two pair or str8 and with the possible hands out there I'm not thinking two pair plays this way.

I guess your advising pushing all in on flop or turn which would have lost my whole stack but your saying long run I'm more likely ahead so it's a plus EV play?

I appreciate your advice just trying to clarify and you still haven't addressed the question of why "we" sometimes call/push "knowing" we're beat.
sooo...what could it be?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like you might be too results oriented (in the short term) and perhaps making too many "great" lay-downs just "knowing" that you're beat. These could be leaks in your game that you should watch out for.

There are many better players than I that have phrased more eloquently the thoughts in my above post. Continue reading these boards as I have. I think it's really helped my game. Read those digests too!

[phrosty]

Not saying I shouldn't bet-saying I shouldn't call on river.
So if I fast play-raising on flop lets say he smooth calls and I lead on turn and he reraises. Does this help me get away? Maybe. Is what people are trying to tell me that there's just no getting away from this hand? I suppose that's possible, but I actually feel the second hand is harder to get away from with no flush/str8 possibilities.
I rarely if ever call preflop in this situation, in fact I don't normally call a raise with AJ OOP so we're back to why do I call when I think I'm beat-maybe only my psychiatrist can answer that.

[phrosty]

Thanks Aloysius and thanks for the thread reference..I'm not giving up yet-lol

[lautzutao]

What I'm saying is that you probably shouldn't even be in this position on the river. I would have gotten all my money in on the flop if that's the way things pan out.

I'm not getting away from this hand...I wouldn't want to. If he smooth calls the flop and puts his money in the middle on the turn, are you THAT sure he's got the straight? I'm going broke here, it's just destiny I guess.

[PinkSteel]

Hand #1 I try to get as much of my stack in on the flop as possible. I pot it, and push to his raise. I lose my stack right with you and have no problem with it. I'm not so good at reads that I can divine the flopped straight, so I'll gladly take that chance for all the other times that either (a) he has TPTK, 2-pair or a lower set, or (b) I boat up by the river.

Hand #2 is an EASY fold preflop to the raise. Given the preflop call, it's now a raised pot so you're playing for your stack. You flop top two and are unfortunate enough to be OOP vs. a flopped set, so you lose a bundle. OK, I would have too, except I would have folded preflop.

[CallYNotRaise06]

one thing i see is you try to slowplay big hands to much. with the JJ go ahead and fire out strong here. the only way your gonna make a profit is by betting, and that is a board with quite a few possible draws, id bet ATLEAST 3/4 pot there.

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the worst player ever?

[/ QUOTE ]

The face that you know your doing something wrong puts you a step ahead of alot of people. instead of blaming bad luck or bad cards, you realize that you made the mistake and you have to fix it.

[ QUOTE ]
I make two perfect reads and go against them, once calling and the second time pushing. What is wrong with me!!! I'm not a moron, I knew what they had both times. What is it in my psyche that makes me go against my read like this? Is this something you guys have gotten past? Why do we do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the reason that i would go against my reads were because i was afraid of being wrong, or maby i wanted to prove to myself that i was right, Maby i was afraid that i was getting bluffed. i dunno.

I improved on this alot by just trusting my judgement 100%, sure im wrong sometimes, but the fact that i can trust myself and believe that im good enough to make the correct play helps me out alot. I think you really just have to be confident 100% regardless of how hard it is.(way easier said than done trust me.)

[ScottTheFish]

Hand #1 you just can't get away from it. Don't make "reads" based on fear. If you never folded top set in 100NL for the rest of your life you wouldn't be far off optimal play. We're allowed to go broke when we flop a monster vs. the one exact hand that beats us. No read is that strong.

Hand 2, I'd fold preflop, but if you call a raise with A8, that's the flop you're looking for. Top 2 is hard to get away from on that board with those stack sizes. Maybe with a very unusually solid read, not often. You'll stack top pair much more often than you'll lose to a set there. Think long term.

[amoeba]

just bet bet bet big hands.

you'll be amazed how easy you get the money.

you want to fool them about what you have and betting does that, check raising does not.

[Dommer]

[ QUOTE ]

My thoughts are that it's the desperate to win a pot situation and an inability to play each hand as an individual situation. My previous hand/session is on my mind, I've just made a couple big laydowns and I ain't making another one etc etc.

C'mon guys I know I'm not the only person who ever called knowing I was beat.

The big question is who has gotten past this and what did it take/how did you learn to stop doing it????

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that attitude is just the mindset a beginning player who tends to be weak tight will take. As you become more experienced at poker you will realize that you can never 100% put someone on a specific hand, just a range. Even if hes the tightest player in the world and you play with him all the time, maybe today hes depressed and does something totally wacky (I've seen it). I'm very tight myself and sometimes I do things that I normally wouldn't do. That's the nature of poker, we're all human. It's a mistake to put someone on one hand. I know you think you can but you'll just have to take my advice and get over yourself if you want to improve. (Or you can do it the hard way like I did)

The correct mindset you should have for poker is "Am I making a good play or a bad play?". A good play can often end up losing you the pot, but the result is meaningless, you care about long term in poker, not one pot.

Deciding whether a play is good or bad is done by adding up all the data you have available to you and making an educated guess as to what would be the long term winning play. Such data would be your hand, the board, how the action went, pot odds, reads on your opponent, meta game considerations, etc.

Sometimes your hand is so strong you don't have any guess work, you just want to get the money in the pot. Your JJ is an example of that. I'll disregard how badly you played that hand and let other people comment on it, but I'll say this one point. If the hands were reversed, do you think your opponent is getting away from JJ there? Theres almost no chance of that, so long term thats just a break even situation. Another way to look at is if you looked for 1000 JJ hands with similar action the JJ woudl be well ahead, not negative. Top set v flopped straight... it happens, and you're not avoiding it usually. But in the reverse, if you fold your top set incorrectly to his lower set or bottom two pair, you just made a HUGE mistake. Pot odds is another thing you have to consider, I'm not looking at the hand, but if the pot is offering you say 2-1, you only have to be right 33% of the time to make a profit. So even if he has the straight there 60% of the time you still made money. 2-1 is a pot size bet, your odds were much better I believe.

An argument could be made for you to slow down on your middle two pair hand and try to control the pot depending on opponent, but without a read its ok to play it really hard. You'll make money long run doing that.

Anyways, to summarize, you played both the hands badly for long term success, and you have the wrong mind set for evaluating your play. You can't improve your play if you don't have the correct tools for evaluating it. So I'd start there.

[scrapperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so they were played horribly. In what way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 = horrible. You say the result would have been the same, and yes that is true. But you need to bet this flop. Yes 8-9 is calling your bet. But what about A-Q, QK and all those other hands that have strait draws? You have just let them draw for free. It would not have mattered in this specific hand. But in holdem you dont let people draw to a hand better than yours for free. This is even more true when your hand is super strong like a set because then you are gonna pay them off if they hit.

Hand number 2 you cant think about laying down on the turn. You flop top 2 and it is likley AK or whatever pays you off. The part that was horrible on this hand is the mini-raise. Dont do it. Dont do it now, dont do it ever again (ok maybe an exageration). There is a flush draw out there, and it is probable that a worse hand pays you off. So bet the hand. Dont price in the flush draws, strait draws, or whatever draw someone might have.

In short you are not betting strong enough and letting people catch up and then paying them off. Yes I know you were behind both these hands. Does not matter. Take your top set or top 2 and you are gonna be good 80% of the time. Make money off these hands, dont minibet or check top set.

You seem to think this is all about you making good laydowns. That is not the problem here. The problem is that you are not betting correctly and putting yourself in a postion to have to make a big laydown.