Harrington is Wrong Here?

Taraz · #1 11-01-2005, 08:57 PM

Hand 9-11 pg. 188 in HOH2

Basically the situation breaks down like this:
Second day of a major tourney
Blinds: 600-1200
Antes: 75
Our Stack: 8200
Our Holding: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB

There are 2 stacks of more than 3500 and everyone else at our table has from 3500-13400 chips, mostly 7k-9k stacks.

One of the big stacks minraises, the SB (13400 chips) calls), the action is on us. What do you do?

He advocates calling and betting out if you hit. He cites the small stacks at the table and the 5-1 pot odds you are getting as the overriding factors.

I've gotten into several arguments about this hand and I really don't agree with it, but he is Harrington and I am nobody. Would you play the way he suggests?

Exitonly · #2 11-01-2005, 08:58 PM

i read this the other day, meant to post it, then didnt.

then i read adanthar's review, saw he mentioned it.

Yea. calling here sucks. there are a few bad hands Harrington had in his examples, this is one of them.

#3 11-01-2005, 08:58 PM

I've made the call closing the action from the BB with much less with 2+ others in the pot.

Yes, I would call this, and hope to hit some sort of hand here.

I also tend to lag it up from time to time, so take it how you want it. If it was just me and the PFR, I would fold this, but if the sb tagged (especially if 2 others tagged along besides PFR) I could find a spot to call.

Taraz · #4 11-02-2005, 04:57 AM

Exit, would you mind elaborating on why this hand is wrong?

My thinking is that 5-1 pot odds isn't that great because hitting a Q or 6 doesn't really guarantee you the pot at all. You're still far from a lock. Second of all, I'd much rather push first in a few hands if possible.

The only way I'd consider calling is if the table is so aggressive that there is a raise before it gets to me every single hand and I can't get any folding equity by pushing.

Taraz · #5 11-02-2005, 04:59 AM

What kind of flop are you hoping to hit?

grandgnu · #6 11-02-2005, 08:45 AM

This is an easy call. If I'm in the BB and not short-stacked, any "min-raise" BS that is made is getting called. Another player coming along for the ride is fine with me.

If I can hit trips on the flop or an open-ended draw or the flush draw with my Queen, we can turn a donk hand into a profitable hand.

I was playing the championship event of my home game, final four players. Folded to me on the button with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I raise to try and steal the blinds, guy in the SB tries to get tricky and trap with his A/A and the flop is 4/4/10 and I get all his chips.

If the guy min-raising is trying to get tricky with you with A/A, he's going to give you all his chips if you hit trip 6's on the flop or if you make two pair.

What makes this even easier is that you can get away from this hand if you don't hit, you aren't married to it. But your hand is disguised enough that if you do hit, you're likely to get a lot of your opponents chips if he's got a decent hand as well.

EDIT: Ah, I see blinds are 600/1200 and we have 8200. I think in this spot, out of position, I'd likely fold the hand. We can't afford to be taking these shots unless we're deeper-stacked.

Bosox · #7 11-02-2005, 09:52 AM

It seems to me that you're at a point where you need to accumulate some chips due to blind size so getting a relatively cheap 5-1 pot with two people to pay you off if you hit seems like a bargain. You can also push a blank flop when the SB checks since the bigstack is probably holding sh*t. You've gotta play sometime.

badluckal · #8 11-02-2005, 10:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i read this the other day, meant to post it, then didnt.

then i read adanthar's review, saw he mentioned it.

Yea. calling here sucks. there are a few bad hands Harrington had in his examples, this is one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This strikes me as similar to the 94o hand that you put so much analysis in to, except this one is in the middle stages. I assume you think this is bad for the same sort of reasons? Does the added high card value make it any closer in your opinion?

#9 11-02-2005, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flop are you hoping to hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Trips, 2 pair, spade flush draw, and if it's 1 on 1, my queen alone might be good enough, depending on how he reacts postflop when I pop him with a reraise.

And if the flop comes something that makes me doubtful that either hit, I'll bet at it as a bluff to try to take it down *sometimes*. The more people that are in the pot, the more dangerous a move like that it, because if it hit either one, you are not going to be happy, but could easily get away from your bluff if someone calls/raises.

The great thing about calling a raise in the bb with a hand like 4Qo is if you hit trips or 2 pair, its going to be well disguised, and you are likely to get a nice pot out of it if you do

daryn · #10 11-02-2005, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Trips, 2 pair, spade flush draw, and if it's 1 on 1, my queen alone might be good enough, depending on how he reacts postflop when I pop him with a reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, a REraise?? meaning you would have to bet out on the flop, then he raises, then you reraise? hot play