How is this hand played?

Valuebettingtheriver · #1 06-25-2005, 07:34 AM

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (19 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Button checks
Final Pot: 19 BB

My thought preflop was that raising would just encourage everyone to draw out on me. On the flop I was thinking the same and wanted to raise the turn, but it was raised when it came to me. Is 3-betting the turn my best bet? I was worried about the button calling 2 cold...

Also, the button is extremely tight passive and UTG+1 and MP 1 are maniacs, and likely to raise and call with any two cards.

kapw7 · #2 06-25-2005, 07:42 AM

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Also, djmikea is extremely tight passive and lolos and bc are maniacs, and likely to raise and call with any two cards.

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Don't post screennames of players.
You can't play winning poker when you are such a wuss

aron · #3 06-25-2005, 07:52 AM

PF: Raise, you've got a great hand, get money in the pot.
Flop: Bet, No A or K, no flush draw, a possible but unlikely straight draw. Great flop for you.

If you would have done this the other players betting probably wouldn't have looked the same so it's hard to say what you should do now.
But basically:
Turn: Bet
River: Bet

-aron

Petro · #4 06-25-2005, 08:01 AM

Dear Valuebettingtheriver,

Please value bet the river. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Best wishes,
Petro

ajrenni · #5 06-25-2005, 08:20 AM

I am guessing that djmikea is BB and lolos and bc are UTG+1 and Button?

In any case, I would bet out on the flop for value here. You have a nice equity edge with that board. Given the size of the hand and the looseness of your opponents, and the fact that the likely bettors are directly to your left, protecting your hand is not going to happen, regardless of when you wait to raise. In fact, your only chance of protecting the hand is to bet out and have BB and/or UTG+1 raise you, possibly facing the other 3 players with 3 bets.

If I had missed the flop bet, I would definitely bet out on the turn. From a psychological point of view, betting out the turn ought to give your opponents something to think about. Waking up on the later streets looks either like a slowplay or a 65. Maybe your loose opponents won't notice or care, but maybe they will slow down and let you take control of the hand, if not fold.

If I were raised on the flop, I would probably 3-bet or cap, and not go into call-down mode until after being raised on the turn (unless the tight-passive player raises and then caps the flop, in which case I would check-call the turn and river).

Dave G. · #6 06-25-2005, 08:22 AM

You played this way too passively. You have a big hand here, you will win far more than your fair share.

Raise/3-bet/cap preflop. Yes, building the pot to a bigger size gives people better odds to chase you, but most of the time those chases will not end up beating you and you'll be building value for yourself. Also, remember that you can "hit" too when you flop a set of Qs, and you'll really wish you had that extra value then. You had a great opportunity to get extra bets off everyone - passing this edge up is a big leak.

Bet the flop. You almost certainly have the best hand. 3-bet it and cap it if the opportunity comes. Bet the turn, if you get raised on the turn again you can slow down and call it down from there. Bet the river for the same reasons.

When you get a big hand like this, you need to push it for value. Missing all these bets with premium hands is going to impact your winrate significantly.

Edit: UTG+1 and MP1 are maniacs? Hell, my advice was posted with normal players in mind. The fact that they're maniacs means you should push it even HARDER. You probably have them crushed and they are going to pay you off big time.

Dave G. · #7 06-25-2005, 08:26 AM

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Maybe your loose opponents won't notice or care, but maybe they will slow down and let you take control of the hand, if not fold.

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Why do we want them to slow down or fold? I want them to keep betting and going for it, because they're just padding the pot for me. We don't want to "give them something to think about". We want to take as much money from them as possible.

AlmightyJay · #8 06-25-2005, 09:19 AM

Wow, this is really bad.

3-bet preflop. Bet everywhere. Passive play like this will cost you a lot of money.

turaho · #9 06-25-2005, 10:31 AM

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Why do we want them to slow down or fold? I want them to keep betting and going for it, because they're just padding the pot for me. We don't want to "give them something to think about". We want to take as much money from them as possible.

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Do we also want to throw up a little in our mouths when an A falls on the river and some moron with A3o takes our pot?

Dave G. · #10 06-25-2005, 10:51 AM

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Do we also want to throw up a little in our mouths when an A falls on the river and some moron with A3o takes our pot?

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I'm raising mostly for value. Protecting my hand from an A is just a somewhat beneficial side effect. It's definitely secondary, though - I'm not unhappy if the A calls all my raises all the way.

If someone does call all my raises with ace rag, then no amount of raising is going to stop them. Some people enjoy playing like that. So I raise for value.

What you're saying is something you'd say to someone who is advocating a slow play - not betting or raising and letting them draw at you for cheap. I, on the other hand, am advocating nothing but bets / raises all the way. You can't stop some people from drawing at you, some people will call no matter what the hell you do, but you can certainly make them pay to do it.

If they win the pot, I'll remind myself that they're just watching my chips for me.