open letter to tommy angelo

[mike l.]

dear tommy,

i had Ad3d two off the button and i raised. 100-200 at commerce. the guy on the button 3 bets. he's very loose and aggro. the bb who is even more clueless than either of us calls. i call.

the flop is Kh9h4c. checked to button who bets, blind folds. i call deciding that i will bet the turn no matter what.

the turn is 7s. i bet, he raises. he raises in such a way with just the right hesitation and right speed and extra strength in his pace that i know what he has. and then he stares blankly holding quite still. i wait and he keeps holding still and he's trying to intimidate. i know he wants a fold. he has exactly QhJh. ive got him tommy, ive got this guy. i should reraise but if he bluffs the river it will be the same amount of bets, in retrospect this is wrong but hell im a little scared. im going to call this guy down man, he's got QJ of hearts. so i call.

the river is 6h. he got there. i check and call. i dont even think about it. im now paying $200 to prove to myself how right i am (not how unlucky i am, even i couldnt delude myself into thinking that, not the way ive been running). the guy flips up QhJh. yep im the greatest. im just a big bet lighter in the wallet. fuuck.

tommy are you out there? why do i keep doing this? will i ever stop doing this? or am i a terminal ego case that will always be held back by his need to be right even when im so wrong? can i mark a date in my calendar tommy? in ink? do i need some therapy, or should i just rush for the ER? things have gotten so much better, but are still so fuucked up. tommy can you help me?

thanks in advance, mike l.

ps: is it true youre coming down here in a couple weeks?? how's your 2-7 triple draw game cause we're big on that down this way. gabe's writing a book on it i think.

[Tommy Angelo]

"why do i keep doing this?"

Because you haven't stopped doing it yet.

"will i ever stop doing this?"

Yes.

"or am i a terminal ego case that will always be held back ..."

When you start to think of the held-back feeling as the constant and the other stuff as the fluctuation, then you'll realize that this ...

"by this need to be right even when im so wrong?"

... is nothing but a symptom of your masochism. And then you'll see why the answer to this ...

"can i mark a date in my calendar tommy?"

... is no.

"in ink?"

Not even in pencil.

"do i need some therapy?"

Not yet. You need to practice a little something.

Face the fact that at some moments during battle it will be correct for you to call headsup on the turn and then fold on the river if the flush card comes. It is inevitable that this play will be correct sometimes. But if you struggle with the act of performing this line, as almost everyone does, then all your brilliance and ability are wasted because you didn't bother to practice the act of making the tough shot. Anyone good golfer can hit off the tee. It's from under trees, under pressure, is what really matters.

And I'm not talking about just calling the turn and folding the river. I'm talking smooth. Smooth is important because 1) Keeps you stable and rehearsed 2) Nobody every knows if you folded a pair or a missed draw or what. You do no pretending either which way, and they have no clue. That is if you're smooth everytime. So rehearsal of any kind is worth it for that reason if nothing else.

He bets the turn. You call. He bets the river, you fold. And you follow through. Nothing about the hand at all comes from you by voice or body. I suggest you practice this stuff in the car by taking the time to visualize yourself in the act of folding the river after calling the turn. Then do it ten more times. It's got to be unthinking. It takes courage to make a fold like this based only on the flush card coming. But when it's right, it's right, and you know it. Trouble is, there's no time for courage between the moment his river bet hits the table and yours follows.

The idea is that when you find yourself in a situation where you already decided to call the turn and fold the river if the flush card comes, it no longer matters if that was the right choice. It was the choice you made. And because you practiced the act of calling the turn and folding the river, in itself, like a golf shot, then, when it comes time to apply it in any particular situation, you are physically capable of doing it, whereas, in your current insufficiently rehearsed state, you can't.

As to the reason you can't do it anyway without the training, that goes back to your fuuckupedness which is a whole nuther matter or course. Meanwhile. Use band aids.

Tommy

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile. Use band aids.


[/ QUOTE ]

How much patching can the house take before the whole edifice crumbles to the ground because the slip shod foundation can't stand the weight?

Mike’s post was inevitable and easily foreseeable- but I do not relish saying so.

-Zeno

[mike l.]

"Mike’s post was inevitable and easily foreseeable"

dont be all smug, i already knew the answer. i did this for everyone elses' benefit.

ive made posts just like this before. it's like a confessional, a penance, and it does wonders. and for all the times ive made this crummy river call, ive made numerous good folds.

"How much patching can the house take before the whole edifice crumbles to the ground because the slip shod foundation can't stand the weight?"

come play me and make the mistake so many of my opponents do of thinking this house is built of straw. ill invite you in, suddenly leave, and set it on fire w/ you inside. you wont even realise youre cooking alive until well after ive left. with your money.

i only post the close ones and the outright errors on here. i already think im the greatest so i need to hear more and more that im not and i need to be put into the uncomfortable situation of trying to defend highly questionable play. i played so damn good last night but it's only because i psyched up about it the two days before by learning and teaching on here.

[mike l.]

"And you follow through."

see but ive already really really psyched myself up about my read. im just so stoked ive found the read and ive got him in my headlights. so it's like im giving myself a prize for second best by calling on the river there and proving "well at least my read was correct". and that's a $200 trophy i just bought, knowing i was right.

how can i stop caring i was right? how can i stop "rewarding" myself this way. you said it's masochism but it's not. im not trying to punish myself. being right gets me high. ego case. i know the profile of the guy who calls and then shows and then whines because he wants to show the whole table, the whole world, that he alone is the most unlucky guy in the world. that's not me. why do i need to prove to myself that i was right, that i am smart, that i am good. ego ego ego. why am i so blessed and so running good yet still so insecure?

it's for this same reason that my game focuses first on what do they have rather than what do i have. ive been working on changing that around to the way most of you naturally play which is to evaluate your own hands first and sometimes you dont even get to what your opponent can have. i have made good progress, but still struggle with that. most of you need more hand reading ability and guts based on that. i need less. it's why people say to me, gee you should learn no limit because you have the sort of mind that would be good at that, at making reads and committing to it. i think it's the same sort of change tommy has went through but his was on a much deeper level. tommy for you it used to be all about button mania and raise bet raise bet position position position and giving your opponents absolultey no credit for anything very read based. and now your touting massive weak tightness and this almost strict zen like penchant for fold fold fold call call call. at least your posts have changed that way. it's heavy. so in trying to change more into that safe and sane mode im straight up schizo at this point. my opponents hate it, and i sort of hate it, but i am doing better and better and the hours and amounts are starting to stand up and say hey this is getting beyond short term running good.

but i still cant seem to bottle it much as i try. i cant control it. so calls like this one i wrote to you about come up and blow bets. i know trying to prove im right is wrong. how can i change that call that proves im right into a fold that doesnt worry about it, that smugly smiles inside and feels glad i didnt have to reassure myself. it seems like a lot to grasp in the car on the way there because im not all psyched up like i am in the moment the hand is going down.

im bad with plans, im bad w/ gimmicks and band aids. i need the real reasons behind it to force my change.

[Turning Stone Pro]

Mike:

If you are a winning player, which I believe that you are, and you're playing with inferior competition, which I also believe that you are, I have one question:

Why would you even worry about trying to outguess the moron on the button, with a flop that absolutely missed you completely? Why not just fold on the flop, and play another hand, and continue winning money?

Am I looking at this too simply? Maybe, I often do. But you are out of position, trying to outguess an idiot in a game where you have a clear advantage. You also have no hand. None.

You have achieved a level at poker that others cannot achieve -- why give the suckers a chance to take your money when there is no need to?

If you really put the button on QJh, and he really has this hand, he has about 200 outs when you lead on the turn.

I don't get it. And I'm not trying to be an antagonistic prick. (This time).

TSP

[M2d]

Maybe this thread belongs on the Psycology forum?
sorry for the vague reply, but for me, it just happened. somewhere, down the road, I just stopped making a lot of these calls.
Now, I've read too many of your posts to berate you for being a calling station, because I know you play very well post flop, and that this example is a snapshot rather than a trend. here, you call and get proven right. other times, you call and get proven wrong (which is a good thing for you stack). other times, you muck and are done with it.

I think it matters little, which option you choose on any given hand. for obvious reasons the river is the last place you want to make tough laydowns, so calling here can't be too wrong. I think this is especially true in your games where the players are trickier and more aggressive. in my 15-30 games, the reads I make can be so spot on that I can laydown in my sleep and not spend an iota of additional brainpower on them.

As I alluded to before, making the laydown and not caring about it goes hand in hand. And, for me, I just suddenly stopped caring. once the my cards hit the muck, I'm done with it, and I couldn't care less about what the other guy holds.

if you need a concrete place to hang your hat, think about making a bad read and mucking the winner as a way to encourage that guy to keep moving on pots against you. it doesn't put any more chips in your stack right now, but it can, at least, give you some value for your action. this way, right or wrong, you get value for whichever action you choose.

[mike l.]

"Am I looking at this too simply?"

no youve hit it dead on. i get overinvolved in marginal situations too often because i have mental problems, ego problems.

that does it. im looking into penis enlargement.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
dont be all smug,

[/ QUOTE ]

But I needed to be smug to help you and I have no reputation to lose.

Great response especially the last paragraph but what is this:

[ QUOTE ]
come play me and make the mistake so many of my opponents do of thinking this house is built of straw. ill invite you in, suddenly leave, and set it on fire w/ you inside. you wont even realise youre cooking alive until well after ive left. with your money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now that is just silly even though I'm sure it was fun to say.

Building a proper poker foundation: Book 1

Your move.


-Zeno

[Steve Giufre]

NM