Refutation to Abdul preflop tactics

[Nate tha' Great]

B-

Yeah. My understanding is that the classic variation of the always open raise arugment goes something like this:

There are some hands that it is somewhat more profitable to limp with, but limping gives away too much information. Therefore, you should raise or fold these hands to avoid information leakage.

The experimental results I have say something slightly different, which is that in certain very common game environments, virtually every hand intrinsically makes you more money if you open-raise with it versus open-limp. Avoiding information leakage is another perk, but even if your opponents had no memory whatsoever of your previous preflop actions, it would still be optimal to always bring it in for a raise.

[SoBeDude]

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You wrote:

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Abdul's sims are meant to reflect the EV of various strategies playing UTG against Tight Aggressive opponents. [...] I decided to recreate the simulations, but instead of putting us against a lineup of TAG's, I instead attempted to re-create the conditions of the Party 15/30 game.

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Think about it. You have different assumptions and reach a different conclusion. It's a different experiment.

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A'ight, well, I (quickly) re-read Abdul's preflop essays and he does mention a couple of times that the strategies he recommends apply to tight games. If he had just said "it's counterintuitive, but computer simulations suggest that you should open-limp with AA!", that would be different. He does qualify his arguments.

So take this then as an FYI of sorts. Abdul's preflop tactics should not be applied in moderate or moderate-to-loose games. In fact, applying them would cost you a lot of money.

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I was just about to type what Shemp already said; You haven't refuted anything. So I wish the subject line was worded quite differently.

But, I'm glad to see this information. My instincts tell me that your conclusions are right. And lets face it, the Party 15 game is not a TAG game. Well I shouldn't say that. I've seen some tough Party 15 tables where his PF strats would probably work. But I'll never sit at one. And his strategies would clearly cost you EV in most Party 15 games.

Lets face it, why grab a ladder and try to pick the top apples off the tree, when I can find so many within an easy reach of the ground?

-Scott

[Saborion]

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I was *not* quite as satisfied with the postflop play, which tends to be straightforward and even tightish. TTHE players do not do a great job of protecting their hands, semibluffing, taking free cards, or considering pot size when determining whether to make a marginal call. They also miss some check-raising, slowplaying, and value betting opportunities.

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Sounds to me as though the TTHE players aren't playing as profitable as the better players at the 15? If that's true, then the hands you listed as profitable to limp with UTG should be even more profitable for a good 15 player?

But how accurate is the comparison between limping and raising UTG be when the post-flop play is less than optimized?

[mikewvp]

Something to consider is your table image, if you start open raising with all kinds of hands UTG, your opponents will call a bit looser, or reraise a bit looser. I would think that this would change your EV quite a bit because you will get more opponents and when you do get cold callers or reraisers their hands may still be better than yours but not monstrously better (what I am trying to say is that if you are open raising UTG with A9s, you might get reraised by AJo, where otherwise the AJ would probably fold). This is ofcourse assuming that your opponents start noticing how often you raise preflop and the quality of hands you raise with in EP.

[Nate tha' Great]

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I was *not* quite as satisfied with the postflop play, which tends to be straightforward and even tightish. TTHE players do not do a great job of protecting their hands, semibluffing, taking free cards, or considering pot size when determining whether to make a marginal call. They also miss some check-raising, slowplaying, and value betting opportunities.

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Sounds to me as though the TTHE players aren't playing as profitable as the better players at the 15? If that's true, then the hands you listed as profitable to limp with UTG should be even more profitable for a good 15 player?

But how accurate is the comparison between limping and raising UTG be when the post-flop play is less than optimized?

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It's a mixed bag. The TTHE opponents don't play quite as well postflop as typical Party 15/30 players, but "you" (the UTG raiser in the experiment) don't play quite as well as a typical 2+2er would either. I certainly wouldn't play a lot of hands that the simulation results *don't* recommend, although the small pairs might be an exception.

[Pot-A]

First of all, if you're going to play on PP, why would you play a table full of tight-agressives? I can always find a table full of passives or maniacs. Why waste your time?

In any event you and Abdul may both be correct, since you're comparing apples and oranges. It may indeed be more profitable to limp in a tight agressive table as the deception value of the limp is higher in that kind of table. And if you're on an average PP table you're going to make more money raising those big hands pre-flop.

[Saborion]

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The TTHE opponents don't play quite as well postflop as typical Party 15/30 players, but "you" (the UTG raiser in the experiment) don't play quite as well as a typical 2+2er would either.

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I don't? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Well, I don't.
Anyway. I see your point. But even though both we and our opponents play worse than the 15 players, is it really scalable? Should depend on each individual simulation, right?

[Senor Choppy]

I checked the link but couldn't find any conclusions for the UTG data. I read Abdul's stuff almost religiously back in the day, but can't recall anything he said about open-limping that wasn't in the context of the limp-reraise vs. raise debate.

I have pretty similar opinions about the strengths and weaknesses of TTH, but I don't trust it to adjust for the dynamics of a preflop raiser well enough to come to a meaningful conclusion about any raising vs. open-limping. Comparing hand values relative to one another is about the only thing I trust with a high degree of accuracy.