Marginal Hand #4 Playing a passive table

[MrWookie47]

Oh dear. You're definitely right. The mere presence of those question marks has me waiting, expecting some heated remarks to fly after he bets.

[tor]

I'm check/folding as well.

[grjr]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG+2 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (12 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 4c 6c (high card, ace).
Hero has Jc 8c (high card, ace).
UTG+2 has Ts 8s (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins 12 BB. </font>

I KNEW J8s was a powerhouse. j/k

Any comments about the end of the hand?

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody asked me to weigh in here; I haven't read any of the other responses.

The table conditions are right for an early limp, especially with the presence of the poster, who further helps protect you from the unlikely event of an isolation raise, and adds some dead money to the pot. Also, it doesn't sound like your opponents are going to play very well after the flop.

That having been said, I think this hand is just a little bit too weak here, and folding is the correct play by a small margin, probably on the order of 0.03-0.05 BB. However, I would have no problem with playing J9s here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So... Entity had to bring in reinforcements this time, eh? I must be scrambling his noodle a little bit.

Seriously though, thanks for stopping by Nate. So J8s becomes playable a little farther down the table? Even considering the weak/passive nature of this table it's not playable here? Does that 0.03 EV for folding take into consideration the texture of the table or is it for an average table?

John

[Firefly]

what the name of poker? On the turn, everyone had a massive draw. It just appeared to miss everyone. On retrospect, the turn bet was bad, i overestimated your outs pretty bad. This was not a fun hand to play particularly. But an educational one nonetheless.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

So... Entity had to bring in reinforcements this time, eh? I must be scrambling his noodle a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. I always confer with people on hands I think are close, and like I said in my first post, this is close. It just isn't enough hand for me, so I asked two people I really respect -- Josh (sthief09), who said he'd fold but limp J9s, which I agreed with -- and Nate, who responded the same.

All of our opinions were given with respect to the game conditions you posted. In a tighter or more aggressive game, this is an easy fold. As is, it's close, but still a fold.

Rob

[MrWookie47]

Phew. At least you didn't bet.

[tor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's 6 BB in the pot,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is irrelevant. It's +EV to call, -EV to bet.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

We are talking about at the beginning of the turn right? I only ask 'cause you say "call" when I see the options of check/bet/fold.

If we are talking about his action after the SB check, I have to be missing something huge here.

I agree there's no fold equity here.

Are you saying that after discounting the 15 straight/flush outs (I don't think a jack is worth anything here) I'm getting odds worse than 6:1?

Or are you saying I'm misapplying the concept of the value bet? I thought anytime the pot/implied odds were clearly laying better than your drawing odds you can go ahead and bet, so that if you hit your hand, you have more money for the win.

Please clear this up for me, and thanks already for your responses.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's 6 BB in the pot,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is irrelevant. It's +EV to call, -EV to bet.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

We are talking about at the beginning of the turn right? I only ask 'cause you say "call" when I see the options of check/bet/fold.

If we are talking about his action after the SB check, I have to be missing something huge here.

I agree there's no fold equity here.

Are you saying that after discounting the 15 straight/flush outs (I don't think a jack is worth anything here) I'm getting odds worse than 6:1?

Or are you saying I'm misapplying the concept of the value bet? I thought anytime the pot/implied odds were clearly laying better than your drawing odds you can go ahead and bet, so that if you hit your hand, you have more money for the win.

Please clear this up for me, and thanks already for your responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the average, you'll have a 14 outer here, which is 2.2:1 to hit by the river. You need 2.2 callers to break even on a bet (to break even here, you'll need 2.2 bets for every 1 bet you put in). Since that is impossible, and you won't fold both players with a bet here, you should check. Hope for a free card, but if it doesn't come, that's fine.

Rob

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
Phew. At least you didn't bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, if I would have bet the other two would have folded and I'd look like a genius for stealing the pot. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]