Just read SSHE and: WHOA! (newbie help, low-content, OT, etc.)

[marchron]

I just read Small Stakes Hold'em and I haven't had my mind blown like that since being told Santa Claus isn't real.

I've been crushing my weekly bar-room $15 no-limit tournament for months, so when I got my tax return I decided to quit being a wuss and invest some real money playing limit ring games online.

(Before this, my only exposure to limit ring games was on a casino boat where the smallest game was $5/$10. I got my ass handed to me.)

So I dropped the full $600 at Full Tilt for a variety of reasons, most importantly because I'd heard horror stories of bad beats and brutal suckouts at Party and Stars and assumed that FTP would have better players. (Yes, I know this is mistaken, first because of the advice in SSHE and second because even at FTP I got beat by someone in EP with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]/3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])

I sat at a $1/$2 table (again, thinking better players would be here and I'd do well because bets were in dollars and not cents) and started red-hot. My first hand was A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]/A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I made $50 in three hours. The next day I made $30 in two hours.

Then it all went to hell. I couldn't buy a break. I probably tilted a ton (actually, I'm sure I tilted a ton). I lost my $80 profit and $150 more on top of that. In dire straits, I consulted an online acquaintance who plays $6/$12 in Atlantic City and he recommended SSHE.

I dove in and: vapor lock.

It was as if they had personally overseen my game and wrote the book just to tear my play several new orifices. Virtually everything I read ran counter to what I'd picked up by playing bar-room no-limit (a far different beast of a game) and learned in books by Ken Warren and Phil Hellmuth (and now I know how Mason feels about those).

I'm willing to trust their experience and judgment. I'm here to learn.

So . . . where the hell do I start?

I'm stuck at FTP because I want to ride out the deposit bonuses and their tournament schedule (especially the WSOP satellites) better fit my real-life itineraries. I'll eat the humility of dropping down to .25/.50 if that's what it takes.

But how can I start turning my game around?

Thanks in advance,
Mike [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[UncleSalty]

Welcome to the forums!

Start by reading the sticky FAQ at the top of the forum. It will guide you toward the correct SOP for posting hands and answer basic questions about the best strategies for beating the Microlimits.

Next, and I can't stress this enough, buy yourself a copy of PokerTracker. $55 sounds pricey, but it is absolutely necessary investment in your game, and you will find that it pays for itself within weeks.

The best way to learn is to respond to other people's hand postings, adding your thoughts and opinions. (Don't be afraid of being wrong, we are all here to learn from each other.) This is MORE effective for learning than just reading the posts without actively engaging in the discussion.

Good luck!

[i]Edit: I recommend you ditch FTP. Their games are tough, and their bonus structure is nearly impossible to clear in a reasonable time frame. In the FAQ there are some good threads regarding bonuses and building a bankroll more easily. Also, check out bonuswhores.com.

[Swax]

haha yeah that's a definite truth. It's funny because people tend to consider limit poker "easier" than no-limit, as if it's a "step down" and any good NL player should be able to run it. My friends who are as good as if not better no limit players than me have all tried to play limit online recently without doing any research, and all gotten shelled, and these same cats have been coming to me for advice on how to get their limit games up to snuff.

I see no reason not to play at the VERY least 1 or 2K hands at .25/.50. I mean, yes, you obviously have the bankroll to play higher limits, but it's gonna take a couple thousand hands to even BEGIN to integrate SSHE techniques into your game. I'd slum it at that limit, or even lower if you can (never played at FTP so don't know the levels) - the lower the better, because at first adjusting to playing as aggressive as 2+2 publications and forums will advise you to do is very difficult...and playing at a level where the money is negligible will make that adjustment easier. when you're playing .5/$1 with $50 like I was initially, you're very hesitant to 3-bet and cap when you should just because it's such an enormous chunk of your roll.

[MrWookie47]

You're going to be at FTP for an eternity and a half if you're determined to clear out the full $600. Plus, they don't support Poker Tracker. Follow the link and buy that program.

I'd say cash out and take your money to Party. The games are softer, the bonus clears faster, and it has great Poker Tracker support. Check out the bankroll building guides written by myself and Greg J for some good advice on getting started. I have a couple addendums I'd like to add to my own guide, though. One is to always sign up for a rakeback program if/when you sign up at Absolute. They don't count your bonus money against your rakeback. Also, PokerStars just reduced their minimum deposit, so starting out there is an even better idea if you're short rolled (although this doesn't apply to you specifically).

To improve your game, take GrunchCan's challenge (link, anyone?) and respond to 5 posts a day without reading any other responses. Then look and see how your answer stacks up. Reread SSH, play more hands, and review your own hand histories.

[Ed Miller]

marchron,

I'm glad the book has helped you understand the game a little better.

Here's my advice for you:

1. For the first few months, expect to lose. Limit hold 'em is a complicated game, and even with the book to guide you, you're simply going to make lots of mistakes while learning. I lost for months before things began to click for me.

2. Since you expect to lose, play at a limit for which losing 500 BB wouldn't destroy you financially. It's ok to pick a limit where losing 500 BB would "hurt" a little, but don't let it break you. I started playing $4-$8 at a local cardroom, but only because I was making enough at my job that $0.50-$1 felt like nothing. I lost $2,000 before I got winning consistently. So play $1-$2 if losing $500-$1,000 isn't a terrible, unconceivable result.

3. Leave your ego at home. Sure you're going to play against bad players who make obvious mistakes, but don't run around with a chip on your shoulder. You don't make the same mistakes they do, but you make other ones. You are no expert, and you are learning to play just like they are. Don't worry about what your opponents do and/or how lucky or unlucky they happen to get. Just worry about, "Did I play this right? Did I play that right?"

4. Post hands here. While reading helped my game a lot, interacting with people on this forum made the big difference for me. And don't just post your hands, answer other people's hands too. Actually, that probably helped me more than anything. I would sit down for two hours and just answer as many hand posts as I could. Sometimes my advice was good, and sometimes it was bad. I didn't care. Eventually, my advice became consistently good, and I became a consistent winner.

Good luck. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
So I dropped the full $600 at Full Tilt for a variety of reasons, most importantly because I'd heard horror stories of bad beats and brutal suckouts at Party and Stars and assumed that FTP would have better players. (Yes, I know this is mistaken...

[/ QUOTE ]

It is great that you realize this, as it is something that you NEED to understand. I have a friend that refused to play 2/4 and 4/8 and played only 6/12 at my casino because the players "respected his raises." You DONT want players to respect your raises, and you WANT them to call you with crap as much as possible. When this happens, you are playing with and edge and that is how you make money. If everyone always respected your raises, the only time you would make money is when you are getting better cards than they are.

[ QUOTE ]
I sat at a $1/$2 table (again, thinking better players would be here and I'd do well because bets were in dollars and not cents) and started red-hot. My first hand was A/A. I made $50 in three hours. The next day I made $30 in two hours.

Then it all went to hell. I couldn't buy a break. I probably tilted a ton (actually, I'm sure I tilted a ton). I lost my $80 profit and $150 more on top of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is unfortunately very common in poker. Variance really sucks, but it is something you will have to learn to understand and live with. I moved up to 3/6 and made $800 in my first 3 days, then proceeded to lose all but $200 of it in the next two days. Understand that there will be a lot of upswings and downswings when you play, but don't make the mistake of blaming all your losses on variance. Variance will be part of a downswing, but you have to realize you will probably be making mistakes as well. Post the occassional hand when you are really unsure of your play, and see what others have to say about it.

[ QUOTE ]
It was as if they had personally overseen my game and wrote the book just to tear my play several new orifices. Virtually everything I read ran counter to what I'd picked up by playing bar-room no-limit (a far different beast of a game) and learned in books by Ken Warren and Phil Hellmuth (and now I know how Mason feels about those).

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, you probably realize this, but NL and Limit are really two completely different games, requiring completely different strategies. Strategies applicable to NL could completely kill you in Limit. Also, players on this forum have found SSH to be the best book on low limit hold em, and it is far and above any other book. A lot of the advice in other books doesn't teach you how to properly maximize your profits, and sometimes is even plain wrong. Read SSH over and over, study it until you understand and can apply all the concepts in that book. It will actually make you a winning low-limit poker player if you can do this, and a pretty good one at that.

[ QUOTE ]
So . . . where the hell do I start?

I'm stuck at FTP because I want to ride out the deposit bonuses and their tournament schedule (especially the WSOP satellites) better fit my real-life itineraries. I'll eat the humility of dropping down to .25/.50 if that's what it takes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where to start depends on what kind of money you have, and what you are willing to invest. If you click on the Whoring 101 link at www.bonuswhores.com it will give you a guide on how to whore bonuses to get yourself a bankroll of a couple thousand dollars. I'm not sure how well this is going to work anymore with the new developments at Party, with them becoming very opposed to players having accounts at more than one skin now.

If improving and becoming a good player is more important to you than getting a large bankroll to start off, my suggestion is deposit $500 into Party Poker or a skin. Try and go through an affiliate that offers rakeback. This won't mean much to you now, but as you get better and move up, you will be very glad you did it. I'm not sure if you can still get rakeback at Party or not, but you can at Empire and Eurobet at least.

Anyways, your $500 + $100 signup bonus is more than enough of a bankroll to be playing the .50/1 game there. This game is an excellent starting point. It is very soft and filled with a lot of bad players. Once you become good at this game and learn to multi table, you can even make a decent amount of money here.

The whole time you are doing this, I suggest reading these forums often. Read hands posted by other players, and respond to them with what you think is the correct play. Then go on to read other's responses, and see how it compares to yours. If it differs, try to understand why they are saying what they do, and why it differs from your advice. If you think that your method is actually better, say this, and try and get a discussion going about it. This is an invaluable learning tool, and I suggest doing it often.


Other Notes:
Read the FAQ at the top of this forum. It will answer many beginning questions, and teach you a little about the etiquette of the forum.

Buy PokerTracker - another invaluable tool for improving your game. You will slowly learn how to use all of its functions. It is $55, but it will pay for itself MANY times over

Again, read and re-read SSH many times. Eventually you may want to invest in a few other books such as Theory of Poker and Inside the Poker Mind.

Good luck, and welcome to the forums.

[malo]

First of all, gonna second (or third) the comments about clearing out of Full Tilt. There are better, easier to clear bonuses all over the net. Go to the Bonus Whores website for more info, and check out the Granny Paradise bonus in the classifieds here. Also check out the Internet forum, aka the Zoo, here at 2+2.

In the beginning, bonuses are often what offset losses and keep you from bleeding money like a stuck pig. Sure, you will have great runs and feel invincable, and then get kicked in the derriere bigtime. Once you start winning consistently, the bonuses are a great bankroll builder. Why play with your own money when you can play with other people's bucks? Whether it comes from bonuses or winnings, I prefer playing with other people's money [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also agree with starting at .25/.50, though if money is not a big issue you might jump to .50/1.00 pretty quick. In the beginning you will lose some money because of errors in play. It's the poker tuition everyone pays to learn the game as books and forums, helpful tho they are, only take you so far. Again, why pay more tuition than you have to?

You're definately on the right track by reading good books and hitting this forum. Good luck!

Edit/PS: One of the previous posters mentioned Pokertracker. Getting this software is one of the best things a newbie can do. Get on a PT supported site, download the software which you can use for free for 1000 hands. After that, it's $55, and worth every penny.

If you are looking for a site that offers hard drive PT compatibility and both .25/.50 and .50/1.00 games, there is Poker Room. The bonus clears so slow it's pretty much worthless, but it can be a good place to use PT initially as you won't have to get hands emailed to you. It's the first place I used Pokertracker myself.

[PuckNPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't had my mind blown like that since being told Santa Claus isn't real.

[/ QUOTE ]

What?!?!? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[no1super2001]

First, run like hell from FTP. Bonus clearing is horrible.

If you want to play nanos and micros to hone your skills, Ultimatebet has limit games from .01/.01. Bonus is about 40% and clearing is reasonable at .25/.50 and above. You will find some tougher players, but they have their share of no-foldems as well.

IMO, you can use Phil helmuth's book to level that pesky rocking table or start a fire. His strategy discussions are so superficial they are dangerous.

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]

IMO, you can use Phil helmuth's book to level that pesky rocking table or start a fire. His strategy discussions are so superficial they are dangerous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Naa just give it to someone you really don't like (Warren's book too)