10/20 Q9o preflop

[Joe Tall]

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It's basically a gamble,

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No $hit, and figure that, we're playing poker too after all, funny. In this situation it's an easy call. I'm sure the forum plays too tight on the button.

This discussion reminds of this old thread...and that's a very young (poker age) GoT in that thread who knows a lot better now.

[flair1239]

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in this case to be honest, its either raise to iso, or fold PF, I just don't see much logic behind calling. Since the blinds are fairly tight, I'd raither raise this PF and take the initiave in this pot

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Initiative against a guy this passive isn't worth that much and increasing the size of the pot and decreasing the errors he makes postflop when I have a hand with little showdown value also doesn't seem worth it.

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I have not read through yet, but this caught my eye.

The guy VPIPs 60% of the time and still maintains almost a 1 for overall aggression.

I keep a lot of data points up on my HUD, including street by street aggression, raising percentage by street, folding percentage by street, and check raising percentage by street.

It has given me a different take on guys simaliar to this. Some of these guys fold frequently on the flop, others are habitual peelers... but are aggressive on the turn. I guess my point is that the overall aggro number on this guy is misleading, on some street he is doing something (for lack of a better term). Or to say it another way... he is most likely more aggressive than the "1" would lead you to believe. The rest of the stats I referenced would give you a clearer picture of what kind of guy you are dealing with.

The other thing that comes to mind, is that yes you probably do have an edge here.. you have position and a hand that probably is on par with most of his holdings. You can also probably assume a post flop edge (although probably not as great of one as his basic stats would indicate, no knock on you but some of these guys are not as heinous post flop as their VPIP/PFR stats would lead you to believe.)

However your edge is probably relatively slim, and easily eliminated by possible action behind you. Also probably easily erased by any mistakes you may make post-flop. In one of the Poker Essay volumes; Mason talks about hands that are either small winners or losers... this would seem to be one of them... I believe he advises getting away from them.

That said in my opinion it is kind of dependent upon your personal phiolosophy. In my opinion these situations feed variance, and really don't carry much "metagame" benefit. I might be giving up a bit by folding these situations, but I guess I kind of doubt it.

[KDawgCometh]

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However your edge is probably relatively slim, and easily eliminated by possible action behind you. Also probably easily erased by any mistakes you may make post-flop. In one of the Poker Essay volumes; Mason talks about hands that are either small winners or losers... this would seem to be one of them... I believe he advises getting away from them.



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honestly, that is too generic of a thought. I think being able to find the value of hands like these will make you a much bigger winner.

Now, I know that I've kinda flip-flopped throughout this, but I'm gonna go more with my original intention of raising to knock out the blinds and get it HU with this honkey. I agree with Sfer though, showdown % here is important along with other relevant stats and observations(like, do scare cards make him fold the better hand?)

[jason_t]

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shant was sweating me tonight and he didn't like this.

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For the record I didn't say I didn't like it. I just said, "interesting."

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My bad, misinterpretation on my part; we didn't get a chance to really talk about it.

[jason_t]

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Nice hand. This post should be in SS.

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Sorry. Because it's a preflop decision? What are the guidelines?

[flair1239]

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However your edge is probably relatively slim, and easily eliminated by possible action behind you. Also probably easily erased by any mistakes you may make post-flop. In one of the Poker Essay volumes; Mason talks about hands that are either small winners or losers... this would seem to be one of them... I believe he advises getting away from them.



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honestly, that is too generic of a thought. I think being able to find the value of hands like these will make you a much bigger winner.


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However that is where we are at. The value of these hands is based upon the information available. Since the hand is thin to begin with, I would guess the value would fluctuate greatly depending on the opposition.

In this one particular situation described in the OP, I think there is a fair chance that we have misinterpreted the limper as a loose passive post flop player. He is definetly loose pre-flop. But as I said in my original post his AF rating of "1" gives me reason to suspect he may not be terribly passive post-flop. In other words he may play after the flop much more reasonably (not to say well)than he does pre-flop.

If that is the case a good chunk of our edge will be based on superior PF standards. So against this particular player, without more information (ie a specific reason/,ore specific stats or an observed exploitable tendency), I would fold.

[Klepton]

limping along allows 2 more people into a pot that shouldn't be there.

when you raise, most likely both SB and BB will fold, and no matter what the flop it's going to be check/bet/fold.

next time raise and get it heads up, and then just win on the flop.

limping here really sucks.

[CardSharpCook]

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Nice hand. This post should be in SS.

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Sorry. Because it's a preflop decision? What are the guidelines?

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Joe Tall is a tool. Keep posting these hands.

I like a raise here. Q9o plays well against his limping range and a raise clears out the blinds. You don't have to bet the flop.

[B Dids]

While I agree that 10/20 should be here, Joe is totally not a tool.

That 75s thread actually got mentioned in some irc convos last night. It's a real eye opener to go back and take a look at.

[tpir90036]

I think there is some context missing. I read JoeTall's response as "this should be posted in SS since most people probably fold here incorrectly." And not "this hand is super basic and should be moved."

Maybe I am reading into it too much.... but I read it as a good thing and not as an insult.