10/20 Q9o preflop

[jason_t]

shant was sweating me tonight and he didn't like this.

The limper is 60/10/.93, the SB is 22/6 and the BB is 22/10 and both are fairly weak.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: I am Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, I call

[KDawgCometh]

in this case to be honest, its either raise to iso, or fold PF, I just don't see much logic behind calling. Since the blinds are fairly tight, I'd raither raise this PF and take the initiave in this pot

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
in this case to be honest, its either raise to iso, or fold PF, I just don't see much logic behind calling. Since the blinds are fairly tight, I'd raither raise this PF and take the initiave in this pot

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Initiative against a guy this passive isn't worth that much and increasing the size of the pot and decreasing the errors he makes postflop when I have a hand with little showdown value also doesn't seem worth it.

[KDawgCometh]

if you feel that is the case, then IMO, folding is best. I can see a limp here if its soooted, but I just dunno as is. We have relatively tight blinds, so if we feel that we have any FE on the flop and/or turn, then raising works, but since that might not be the case, I just move onto the next hand

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
if you feel that is the case, then IMO, folding is best. I can see a limp here if its soooted, but I just dunno as is. We have relatively tight blinds, so if we feel that we have any FE on the flop and/or turn, then raising works, but since that might not be the case, I just move onto the next hand

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I don't see how what I said implies that folding is best.

[private joker]

Folding &gt; Calling &gt; Raising. It's basically a gamble, and I think in this situation we have position and post-flop skill on our side, but a weak hand, small pot, and lack of initiative against us. In the long run I see this play being, if not neutral EV, slightly -EV, but as an exercise it'll be fun to see discussed.

By the way, if one of the blinds raises, I think we should fold despite the improved pot odds. And how's that going to look for our image?

EDIT: Just looked in PT. No big surprise, since I only play Q9o in the BB for free, but my stats say QTo is a +.02bb/100 winner, and Q9o is a (.03)bb/100 loser -- over 37k hands, with about 350 occurrences each.

[KDawgCometh]

I'm not saying that you felt that folding is best, I just think that given the situation, it is probably the best play, and that raising is the next best play. If we can gain FE and fold out the blinds, then we raise, if not, then I'm not bothering with this hand.

I generally like to take the lead in pots and what not. Against this villian, that would be the route that I would take if I was to play the hand. basically here this is how I'd go about this folding&gt;raising&gt;calling. I don't want this hand more then HU, and raising gives us the best chance for that if we are to play it. limping is just encouraging the sb to complete with good odds on almost any two cards, and obviously the BB is gonna check with any crap hand, do you really want to play this hand in a 4 way limped pot PF, I don't

[stigmata]

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Initiative against a guy this passive

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A 60/10/.93 isn't actually that passive -- he may be playing a reasonable postflop game (at least in comparison to his preflop game [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). I don't know though, you were at the table. But his stats indicate that you may have some fold equity against this guy, and that he probably isn't a total calling station.

That being said, I just think Q9o is too weak -- we don't have a much (if any) equity against his limping hand (in fact you are really relying on position and outplaying him), and there is still the danger of a decent hand in the blinds.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in this case to be honest, its either raise to iso, or fold PF, I just don't see much logic behind calling. Since the blinds are fairly tight, I'd raither raise this PF and take the initiave in this pot

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Initiative against a guy this passive isn't worth that much and increasing the size of the pot and decreasing the errors he makes postflop when I have a hand with little showdown value also doesn't seem worth it.

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I have not read through yet, but this caught my eye.

The guy VPIPs 60% of the time and still maintains almost a 1 for overall aggression.

I keep a lot of data points up on my HUD, including street by street aggression, raising percentage by street, folding percentage by street, and check raising percentage by street.

It has given me a different take on guys simaliar to this. Some of these guys fold frequently on the flop, others are habitual peelers... but are aggressive on the turn. I guess my point is that the overall aggro number on this guy is misleading, on some street he is doing something (for lack of a better term). Or to say it another way... he is most likely more aggressive than the "1" would lead you to believe. The rest of the stats I referenced would give you a clearer picture of what kind of guy you are dealing with.

The other thing that comes to mind, is that yes you probably do have an edge here.. you have position and a hand that probably is on par with most of his holdings. You can also probably assume a post flop edge (although probably not as great of one as his basic stats would indicate, no knock on you but some of these guys are not as heinous post flop as their VPIP/PFR stats would lead you to believe.)

However your edge is probably relatively slim, and easily eliminated by possible action behind you. Also probably easily erased by any mistakes you may make post-flop. In one of the Poker Essay volumes; Mason talks about hands that are either small winners or losers... this would seem to be one of them... I believe he advises getting away from them.

That said in my opinion it is kind of dependent upon your personal phiolosophy. In my opinion these situations feed variance, and really don't carry much "metagame" benefit. I might be giving up a bit by folding these situations, but I guess I kind of doubt it.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
However your edge is probably relatively slim, and easily eliminated by possible action behind you. Also probably easily erased by any mistakes you may make post-flop. In one of the Poker Essay volumes; Mason talks about hands that are either small winners or losers... this would seem to be one of them... I believe he advises getting away from them.



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honestly, that is too generic of a thought. I think being able to find the value of hands like these will make you a much bigger winner.

Now, I know that I've kinda flip-flopped throughout this, but I'm gonna go more with my original intention of raising to knock out the blinds and get it HU with this honkey. I agree with Sfer though, showdown % here is important along with other relevant stats and observations(like, do scare cards make him fold the better hand?)