($27) Raise size question

5-600 should take it down. Doesn't seem like anyone wants those chips out there that badly. You need to secure them asap.

If someone else is slowplaying(or bluffs) and pushes over the top...c'est la vie.

[The once and future king]

Yea, but I dont think aggregating all the 80 chips lost in one total sum reflects the loss one actualy suffers when looking at this in the long term.

Yea strictly speaking that 80 chips has equity, but I think other factors such as block size are more important here. Being the biggest stack/doubling on the table at this stage has an equity value in and of itself in addition to the equity contained in the stack itself. Where as the reverse is true with the 80 chips.

Yes there is equity within the 80 chips but my stack is at relatively the same size before and after the call, or the equity contained within the stack itself as a playing tool is the same.

Therefore whilst if one added up all the wins and losses in terms of chips they might be close but this would not tell all of the story as it would not reveal the aggregate of equity gained by having a large stack early.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, but I dont think aggregating all the 80 chips lost in one total sum reflects the loss one actualy suffers when looking at this in the long term.

Yea strictly speaking that 80 chips has equity, but I think other factors such as block size are more important here. Being the biggest stack/doubling on the table at this stage has an equity value in and of itself in addition to the equity contained in the stack itself. Where as the reverse is true with the 80 chips.

Yes there is equity within the 80 chips but my stack is at relatively the same size before and after the call, or the equity contained within the stack itself as a playing tool is the same.

Therefore whilst if one added up all the wins and losses in terms of chips they might be close but this would not tell all of the story as it would not reveal the aggregate of equity gained by having a large stack early.

[/ QUOTE ]

Block theory has little place at the stakes durron (or I) plays.

Also, that block of 0 when you get stacked is important to consider too.

Yugoslav

[SuitedSixes]

I love threads like this where everyone argues on how to play a medium set on a flush/straight draw board when there is another thread on the front page with everyone screaming about how idiotic it is to fold medium pp's to a raise.

Maybe us fold pp's to a raise players are on to something?

[The once and future king]

I disagree.

I am only using block theory in the loosest sense that a stack has an equity in and of itself that is in relation to the size of the stack yet can not be quantified in strict terms unlike say ICM where your stack relates directly to a % of the prize pool say.

So when looking at the EV of the call we must factor in the equity gained by you easily the best player on the table doubling up and getting weaponed up and now able to boss the table like a mofo. I exagerate but you get my drift.

Simply going chips won - chips lost = whatever is not going to give the true picture.

Especialy as most of those chips lost will be in aggregates of 80 that dont effect the equity of your stack in and of itself, I mean haveing 80 chips less is not often going to impact on your FE is it? etc etc etc.

Whereas the pluses will all probably in aggregates that do effect greatly the inate equity of the stack itself.

I am asuming at all times that we are talking about PS and not PP stack sizes and blind structure.

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]

Besides, I don't want to be giving free cards to any 9 or 7 either.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a 17.4% chance of seeing one of those two cards on the turn.

If that is your thinking then you have to get it all in here. Tell me which size raise you can make here that you can get away from when a 9, 7 or [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falls.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I love threads like this where everyone argues on how to play a medium set on a flush/straight draw board when there is another thread on the front page with everyone screaming about how idiotic it is to fold medium pp's to a raise.

Maybe us fold pp's to a raise players are on to something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Big, big, big, big, big, big difference between the hands preflop.

This hand had a raise right before HERO and that one had a raise that was called in 5 places before it got to HERO.

This one I think is close, and I could go either way. It's not just the raise, it's all the people getting to act after you call.

The other hand, I absolutely call.

[The Yugoslavian]

Yes...we're talking PS here but IMO it doesn't much matter from a theoretical standpoint. Doubling up early is fine and all but it doesn't guarantee bully rights on the bubble. Those extra chips are worth less from an ICM tournament equity model. You are more likely to find a situation where you can obtain a big stack in a favorable configuration but you also have ended up with these superfluous chips at some cost. Is the cost worth it?

I don't think so. You, durron, et al. obviously do. I know MagnoliasFM or whomever definitely would agree with you.

So for this specific hand I'd like to think I'd play it like this:

Limp/fold
Limp/call, push flop action
Limp/call, raise ~500 to action
Limp/call, call flop
Limp/call/fold

1-3 are somewhat close I guess.

Yugoslav

[The once and future king]

When are chips ever superflous? In the hands of a good player those chips can be used to win more chips and so on and so on and so on. ICM takes a static picture where as the situation is actualy dynamic especialy on poker stars where there is a lot more post flop play.

Chips and Stacks do have a value in and of themselves say an accumulation equity/ability that only expresses itself when the chips are played, the better the player the higher this AE will be. This translates into pure equity in a way that can not be quantified by ICM. This value will increase with stack size. However it is limited by the fact that 1st only pays X%.

This post started of much better and hard hitting but I accidently deleted it coz Im a bit drunk. I tried re typing it but seemed to have missed something out/forgoten something that detracts greatly form the massive insight that this post was initialy. Shame.

[The Yugoslavian]

They're superfluous in the sense that you can't double them. But yes, that's at the 'heart' of stack theory or whatever anyway.

Anyway...whatever, agree to disagree....when in Rome, right?

Yugoslav