Does everyone hate this flop CALL?

kurto · #1 03-25-2005, 03:08 AM

Villain is SLPA.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($23.15)
MP3 ($21.6)
Hero ($45.27)
Button ($24.3)
SB ($25.75)
BB ($47.58)
UTG ($26.15)
UTG+1 ($64.35)
UTG+2 ($23.63)
MP1 ($40.22)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, UTG+2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

I know some would argue to raise. I have been losing with AQ in early position because I've been missing on the flop too often and having to fold to reraises too often postflop. So unless I'm in late position, I've been limping more. (I just noticed I am in late position... still, I've been losing with this hand cause I keep missing. I'm limping more then I should perhaps....)

Flop: ($1.75) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets $1, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $1, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds.

**Here's my real question. Is this a terrible call? I have an inside straight draw and a backdoor flush. I figured the player would slowdown if I called since he's out of position and he's a generally passive player... so assuming we go heads up, I might get a free card. Thoughts?

Turn: ($3.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $3, UTG+2 calls $3.

Nut flush draw and the nut straight... I figure he'll let me know if he has the flush AND, if he does, I still have redraws to the nuts, right?

River: ($9.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $5, UTG+2 calls $5.

Wasn't sure how much to bet here. Its a scary board for him so I wasn't sure he'd call anything without a flush.

Final Pot: $19.75

kurto · #2 03-25-2005, 11:46 AM

bump. (My first bump!)

etgryphon · #3 03-25-2005, 12:24 PM

I'll weight in...

Preflop:

I dunno I don't really consider the CO "early position" so I would raise it, but with that being said you are playing AQ for deceptive value looking for the str8. So you decide to play it that way. The only reason for raising would be to isolate an opponent that would be playing Ax (x < Q) or get more money in playing a pocket pair.

Flop:

I think that this is a great flop for you for playing a deceptive hand. I think the call here is fine, just make sure you REALIZE what you are doing. You are calling this to get the implied odds.

Turn:
Ugh...Worst card to come. Giving the you the str8 and the flush-draw. The check is a little currious, so I think a pot size bet is a good move. The call is a little curious...If the guy is really SLPA then I expect a bump back from a made flush.

River:
Basically a brick actually it might help you if they are playing something like a 87o with a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. After the guy checks I'd be sure I was ahead. I think you can get more in there than just 5 dollars. I would be doing at lest a pot or try to make it look like an overbet steal...

I'm thinking he is going to turn up QJ or something like K8 or two pair on the flop.

-Gryph

swolfe · #4 03-25-2005, 12:32 PM

preflop: you have 4 limpers ahead and the two blinds behind. if you raise, you're going to hate it if everyone calls, and you hate raising to 8-10BB with such a marginal hand. i'm okay with limping in this spot...if there were 2 fewer limpers, i'd raise it.

flop: you have the gutshot, an overcard, and a BD flush draw. your hand is probbaly completely disguised and it's a pretty small bet. i'm fine with the flop call, although i'd hate it (and fold) if someone behind me check-raises.

turn: looks good.

river: i'd bet slightly more...maybe $7.

EDIT: i don't think this guy was betting a flush draw on the flop. he's got KQ or KJ, and is afraid of the flush.

jhall23 · #5 03-25-2005, 12:38 PM

Flop call is fine. Even though it's just a gutshot you are drawing to the nuts on 3 cards then have a backdoor redraw to the nuts. You should have really good implied odds on the 3 non-flush straight cards.

As for the rest I would raise this PF in the CO to hopefully get it down to 2 or less callers. Just remember you don't always have to bet out at the flop especially if you know your opponenets to be calling station types or if there are just too many people in. Your PF agression can buy you a free card on the flop which you could use to draw a free card if you flop a draw like on this flop.

Turn and river seem fine to me.

stankybank · #6 03-25-2005, 12:45 PM

yea, I like limping more than raising preflop in that situation.

okay call on flop. if you improve you continue, if you don't you fold. simple.

the rest seems pretty standard. did he show KsomethingQ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for the chop?

stupid me, no chop here. misread, sorry.

kurto · #7 03-25-2005, 12:49 PM

Thanks for you comments. I'm always certain when I have the obvious monster draws...oesd, flush draw... its the longer shots that I'm never certain whether to play or not... backdoor straight or flush, inside straight draws...

"I dunno I don't really consider the CO "early position" so I would raise it," Yeah... I realized after I typed it that I confused that. I know its short term variance... but I've been missing constantly with AQ and have been playing it more passively. When you raise 5xbb 10 times and miss 8 out of 10 times... it starts to add up. And I can't get rid of the limpers unless I raise it much more... in which case I've built a big pot with a hand that's gotta hit. So I've been playing them passively.

**"I think you can get more in there than just 5 dollars. I would be doing at lest a pot or try to make it look like an overbet steal..." This is where I often get lost... I was 95% certain I had the best hand. My biggest fear was betting too much and having him fold. (I used to play on Pokerstars where people were less likely to call large bets with weak hands. I'm not used to Party players who will call their stack with junk. I'm adjusting.)

kurto · #8 03-25-2005, 12:51 PM

"EDIT: i don't think this guy was betting a flush draw on the flop. he's got KQ or KJ, and is afraid of the flush."

Excellent read. He had KQ (no spades at all).

Considering a possible straight and flush on the board... I was surprised he even called the $5 river bet. I gotta get it into my head... "these people will give you more then they should...bet accordingly"

stankybank · #9 03-25-2005, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent read. He had KQ (no spades at all).

Considering a possible straight and flush on the board... I was surprised he even called the $5 river bet. I gotta get it into my head... "these people will give you more then they should...bet accordingly"

[/ QUOTE ]

yay, I was right! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] got my post before you did too! hehe... anyhow

why were you surprised he called your river bet when he had the straight?

kurto · #10 03-25-2005, 01:03 PM

LOL You know what's funny... I won the pot, but he'd mucked and I never saw what his hand was at the time. When I was looking at the hand history, I never matched it up with the final board. Until you pointed it out, I was thinking he just had a pair!

Jeez... had I pieced together that he might have a lower straight, I would have bet much more on the river. Missed opportunity.