Why some struggle with the jump from Micro to SS games

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
This is very true. It's very easy for a solid player to reach sort of a Faustian bargain on the tilt issue by making plays that he knows to be slightly -EV, on the rationalization that it might allow him to fend off making grotesquely -EV plays. I'd usually play A8s here; let's give K8s a try! It's almost the same hand!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to start posting some specific hands, but for example ones for me that have been giving me trouble are ones where it's folded to me in middle position and I have a hand like QJo or A9o. I know I should raise or fold, but raise doesn't feel right when you're getting your hands cracked, and folding doesn't seem right when you're running bad and are eager to hit a hand.

So most of the time I end up calling, missing the flop often holding two overcards, looking at my six outs to a likely best hand, and either betting or calling, yada yada yada and I'm down another 2 BB in the hand.

One other addendum to my original post that I think is a byproduct of being on here so much actually, and is a small detriment.

- Believeing that people play as intellegently as we do:

I catch myself once in a while talking myself into continuing to lead with a hand because I've decided that my calling opponent can't have a hand that beats me, because they would have raised before the flop. Would they though?

Here's one from last night: Two limpers to me, I raise in CO+1 with KQs. Button cold calls, blinds call. Flop is K-high. I bet the whole way, because in my mind, someone with AK would have likely raised or reraised with that hand. Well, that sounds great until the button shows down AK at showdown. Now, I don't think I played the hand incorrectly necessarily, but I think with marginal hands like middle pair if you're getting called, you have to think a little more about the fact that a lot of opponents aren't going to be aggressive, and will call with better hands instead of raising.

Not sure if that part makes sense, but I just feel this is a small leak for certain hands, especially ones where you suddenly get raised by an opponent on the river. Can't remember the last time I called the raise that they didn't have the goods.

[lefty rosen]

The type of bad player, at 2/4 is very different than the average micro limit player. Most micro limit players are horrid chasers. At this level many are overly aggressive with AK or monsters. Reads are way harder as most micro players are extremely passive and once they attack you know they have the nuts, here they could be playing games.....

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
If you play 100% on Party, or Stars, and have used Pokertracker for every single hand you may be ok but I am sure 90% of new users to this forum never heard of PT beforehand and thus dont know about their roll coming from where. If I played an hour at my gf's house it isnt recorded in PT.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to touch on this part as well. Good point BOOT. Personally, I've been lazy about making sure I'm inputting hands, and I need to sit down and take a night to figure this out. When I sit down at the computer, I usually want to play though, not tinker with PT.

And frankly, I think the PT interface is quite daunting for a beginning user. I'm a "who needs an instruction manual" kind of guy, and I think I should probably take time to read the PT forums, and figure out some of the bells and whistles that I've been neglecting.

BTW BOOT, were you on Stars last night? I think we were at a couple of the same tables, so you probably saw some shaky play on my part. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[B00T]

haha, I made a post to you on the Stars reload thread in the Zoo mentioning I was playing with you.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
haha, I made a post to you on the Stars reload thread in the Zoo mentioning I was playing with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. I didn't see that last night, very funny. Yeah, down $28 at the two tables with you, and down more at the others. 90 minutes of banging my head against the wall.

Anyway, I'll be back at it tonight. After some of the words in this thread and others, I'm motivated to get back at it and play better. I won't be having a couple of glasses of wine tonight beforehand though - that's tilt-fuel for me.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's one from last night: Two limpers to me, I raise in CO+1 with KQs. Button cold calls, blinds call. Flop is K-high. I bet the whole way, because in my mind, someone with AK would have likely raised or reraised with that hand. Well, that sounds great until the button shows down AK at showdown. Now, I don't think I played the hand incorrectly necessarily, but I think with marginal hands like middle pair if you're getting called, you have to think a little more about the fact that a lot of opponents aren't going to be aggressive, and will call with better hands instead of raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to say it, but your desrciption of the hand here seems to be more emblematic of a sort of mini-tilt than the actual way that you played the hand. Betting top pair, good kicker is automatic the whole way through. There are certainly some weird, passive opponents (paricularly in live games) who will just call with something like TPTK, but they're usually also the sort who will also call down with ace-high. Certainly, you should take notice if one of these guys raises, but fearing calls is not good poker.

The reason that I mention this is that I think one of the primary ways in which good players tilt is to miss a lot of value bets when they're running bad.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason that I mention this is that I think one of the primary ways in which good players tilt is to miss a lot of value bets when they're running bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, right now my value bets aren't showing much value. I'm getting the 4 losing hands on my 5-1 calls, etc.

Anyway, I just posted a hand in micro that's probably a better example of being too aggressive against someone who is calling down, but I'm having a hard time determining when to let up off the gas.

[Joe Tall]

In the micros you are generally correct to limp in EP with Axs (and even Kxs sometimes), as well as small pairs like 22-55. While this may still be correct at $3/6, IMO it generally is not.

Be careful now, granted, as you move up the games are generally more aggressive but I've been in 20/40 games where I limped UTG w/22 because it was so passive. However, as you move up, you need to recognize what type of game you are in and what is likely the action going to be preflop if you hold such hands where you'd like to see the flop cheaply.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[skunkworks]

Let me chip in on this subject. I think getting some shorthanded experience can really help quite a bit at the 2/4 or 3/6 level. Although I've seen plenty of 2/4 tables that play like .50/1, there will frequently be times when hands are folded to late position and you have to learn how to steal/defend blinds and play well heads-up. I've dwelled at the 1/2 6-max level for some time now and I really feel confident about my approach to playing shorthanded.

Not only am I a much-improved shorthanded player, I now know how to recognize certain situations that occur and how to play them accordingly. I've really learned how to reason critically and logically about what the best play might be instead of looking for the default robotic play.

I just feel as though I've gotten more experience playing shorthanded than I ever could have gotten playing full-ring because 6-max puts you in awkward positions more frequently than playing in a ring game. It forced me to think.

A really good book to read is 2+2er John Feeney's "Inside the Poker Mind." There's a section where he breaks down how an average player might analyze/play a certain situation and compares it to how an expert player might see it. It really showed me how to start thinking at a higher level.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
In the micros you are generally correct to limp in EP with Axs (and even Kxs sometimes), as well as small pairs like 22-55. While this may still be correct at $3/6, IMO it generally is not.

Be careful now, granted, as you move up the games are generally more aggressive but I've been in 20/40 games where I limped UTG w/22 because it was so passive. However, as you move up, you need to recognize what type of game you are in and what is likely the action going to be preflop if you hold such hands where you'd like to see the flop cheaply.


[/ QUOTE ]

Joe,

This is a good clarification and what I should have said. I often find myself in games where these hands are playable regardless of limit, but increasingly I find them unprofitable at the $3/6 tables I am at. (Now granted that my game selection is not the best given my extremely narrow time frame of late for playing online.) My point is that these are no longer pretty much auto limps like they were in the microlimits when I started.