End of year review. Some common situations.

[Guruman]

I'll make this play with spades as well. its the classic free card play, and you can see by the poll results just how much it freezes up you full ring guys. Shorthanded people are less likely to ever fold a good pair, so thats why I tend to just check through and spike a spade.

I'll reiterate how much of a disaster it is to get that turn checked through by a draw or a worse hand. don't let it happen man.

[Nick Royale]

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I'll reiterate how much of a disaster it is to get that turn checked through by a draw or a worse hand. don't let it happen man.

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Until my villain learns to check the turn I don't bother, but i can see your point and I guess I will adjust my play as I move up in limits.

[chief444]

Bet/folding when he raises his draw again on the turn is a disaster.

Bet/calling a two outer is bigger mistake than offering a free card to a hand that has a lot of outs and will call a bet but will likely bet if checked to.

Check/calling when your opponent will bet most of the time anyway is not a disaster. It's perfectly fine when your hand is ahead enough to see a showdown but less than the majority of the time. Besides that, the opponenet will bet this turn most of the time with whatever he/she raised the flop with...including worse hands, draws, or better hands. People get stupidly aggressive in these situations and I'd much much rather take a line that gets me to showdown with JJ than a line that includes a fold.

[Guruman]

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Bet/folding when he raises his draw again on the turn is a disaster.

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agreed, but it takes a serious lag/maniac to do this. I'll adjust here when I get that read. Our line suggests that we like our hand, and raising here with a hand that we beat is reckless, since we'll threebet our monsters and showdown our ok hands.

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Bet/calling a two outer is bigger mistake than offering a free card to a hand that has a lot of outs and will call a bet but will likely bet if checked to.

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this confuses me. If we're sure enough that we only have two outs, then we should check/fold, not check/call. the one place where the turn checking through could help us would never occur, because all bigger pairs have to bet here.

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Check/calling when your opponent will bet most of the time anyway is not a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]It is when he's skimmed a poker book that explains the free card play. [ QUOTE ]
It's perfectly fine when your hand is ahead enough to see a showdown but less than the majority of the time. Besides that, the opponenet will bet this turn most of the time with whatever he/she raised the flop with...including worse hands, draws, or better hands.

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while its true that draw will sometimes bet here, we don't want to give them the option. Since our line already suggests that we've minimally paired up, any two spades paying attention will take a free look at the river. Most spades here don't raise. It's too expensive of a bluff, especially when they have odds to draw and can just pop us on the river when they hit.

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People get stupidly aggressive in these situations and I'd much much rather take a line that gets me to showdown with JJ than a line that includes a fold.

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I disagree. If we check/call the turn and river a few things happen:

1)it loses us 2bb to showdown when we're behind (usually hopelessly behind)
2)it wins us 1 bb when villain is both behind and willing to bluff the turn and fold the river UI
3)it wins us 0 bb when villain checks behind and fold the river UI.
3)it gives a spade draw exactly what he was looking for - a free card. If villain checks the turn and a spade falls on the river, what's your line?

by bet/folding here though, our line becomes more stable.

1)it loses us 1 bb when we're hopelessly behind
2)it wins us 1 bb when villain has a draw and does not improve on the river
3)it denies trailing hands the chance at a free card
4)it can win 2 or 3 bb when we improve, or when villain has a weaker pp.

[Guruman]

I'll also add this:

if our villain is aggressive, then I'd take the bet/call check/call line here. I don't mind letting aggros raise thier paired tens on the turn, and this wins me more than when I just check/call.

[chief444]

The stop and go just screams...I like my hand...a little...please don't raise.

That's why it's a good line with a big hand but a pretty lousy line with a hand you can't even call a raise with but is definitely worth showing down.

But the big thing here is a draw doesn't "sometimes" bet. A draw usually bets here if he's aggressive enough to raise the flop with it. Shorthanded, full or whatever...this turn doesn't get checked through as often as you seem to think.

As far as the bet/call I was just comparing the three options since I wasn't sure how you were handling the raise. I wasn't saying you should call if you bet and are raised. I was just pointing out that a fraction of a BB mistake isn't a "disaster" and that your line is what opens you up to a much worse mistake.

Besides that...you seem to just be assuming your opponent either has a good draw here or better hand and assuming that your opponent will never raise the turn if you're ahead. Neither is true. Also, your thoughts on win/losses and equity are off. You don't lose 2 BB when you call down. Your hand is good sometimes or you wouldn't call down. You don't win 1 BB when your opponent is on a draw. You win a fraction of a BB and considering that your opponent will bet that draw when checked to quite a bit it's a small fraction.

[Guruman]

this could devolve into semantics pretty quickly here, so I'll try to avoid that. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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The stop and go just screams...I like my hand...a little...please don't raise.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't know if it screams that per se, but I'll certainly concede that it implies this. regardless, it will still be difficult to raise with many hands that we beat, because the further implication is that we're showing down. I'm not trying to outsmart my opponent, I'm trying to rob him.

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But the big thing here is a draw doesn't "sometimes" bet. A draw usually bets here if he's aggressive enough to raise the flop with it. Shorthanded, full or whatever...this turn doesn't get checked through as often as you seem to think.

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I still disagree, but we'll just have to leave it at that.

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you seem to just be assuming your opponent either has a good draw here or better hand and assuming that your opponent will never raise the turn if you're ahead. Neither is true.

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Not really, and I'm sorry if I've made it sound that way. We really have very little evidence of villain's hand by the time the turn comes around if we just call there. He could easily have a ten, a flush draw, a hand like AQ, a king, a big pair, or even two pair.

I think the flop play is close between threebetting or calling, depending on how loose or aggressive the villain is. The flop play also sets up the turn play. If we call, leading locks in a bet when we're ahead, and gives us a way out if we're behind. I'm not saying its an auto bet/fold on the turn if we take that line, but I think its a decent option.

I also agree that we want to get to showdown often here.

I don't agree that we have to get to showdown 100% of the time here.

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Also, your thoughts on win/losses and equity are off. You don't lose 2 BB when you call down. Your hand is good sometimes or you wouldn't call down.

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I didn't say that, and didn't mean to imply it. I thought I was clear when I said we lose 2 bb when we call with two outs. If I was confusing there, I aplogize.

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You don't win 1 BB when your opponent is on a draw. You win a fraction of a BB and considering that your opponent will bet that draw when checked to quite a bit it's a small fraction.

[/ QUOTE ] I thought I properly qualified that with river contingencies as well, but again I aplogize if you took my comments to mean that you win 1 bb when he's drawing.

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for the most part, we're either way ahead of a ten, way behind a king, or somewhere in the middle with the flush draw.

I think the real question is, will the villain bluff raise a draw on the turn when we lead more often then he'll take the free card when we check?

The answer to that probably swings this one way or the other.