For Vince... about hands that lose value in loose games

Vince, saw your thread on RGP. There was a post here last week or so with some info relevant to the topic. It doesn’t go into detail, but does point to some past posts that discuss the topic. I think some folks jump a little blindly at the idea that no hands really lose value in loose games. I think some actually go to -EV. Here’s the link to that post:

http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/sho...=14&fpart=

[Mason Malmuth]

I haven't read the other posts, but the following is a brief excerpt from HPFAP. It should help in understanding exactly what we are saying. Also, keep in mind that Mark Glover/Mark Glover's Editor/Quad Nines is on a crusade to prove us wrong on something. I don't believe he's been successful yet.

MM

On the other hand, with many players in the pot, your implied odds usually have increased. This means that you are much more apt to play and even raise with small pairs, suited connectors, and hands like:

As 6s

Conversely, when you hold big unsuited cards, your opponents are getting implied odds from you. Therefore, it is wrong to raise with unsuited high cards in multiway pots, and it may be right to fold hands like AT, KT, and even AJ and KJ.

[Ed Miller]

Interesting... I don't think I've ever folded AJo for one bet except for in EP in a tough game. More specifically, under what situations would you consider it appropriate?

[AceHigh]

Are you talking about the post about Gary Carson's book?

I think the Vince's mistake is Gary and S&M are talking about 2 different ideas.

Gary's idea is that premium unsuited cards don't lose value, hands like AK. They won't gain as much value as hands like AKs, etc. but they don't lose value.

S&M's idea is that weaker unsuited big cards lose value, like KT, because it is likely to be dominated by a better hand.

[andyfox]

I don't think that's Carson's idea at all. He says, "High cards have increased value [in loose games], even hands with only a single high card. . . There is a popular misconception that unsuited hands go down in value in a loose game. This just isn't true. All hands gain value when your opponents are making mistakes."

[Pot-A]

Mason,

I agree with the quote from HPFAP, in the mathmatical sense. However, the part you included doesn't make any reference to the "looseness" of the game.

It seems to me the value of these hands holds up well in a game where your opponents are playing too loosely - i.e. I'll play AJo against the average 3-6 table with 6 players in, but if I'm likely to face six legitimate hands I'll probably throw it away.