Turn chip spewing?

weevil · #1 07-24-2005, 05:08 AM

Button is a 50/30/1.3, his limp/call/cap pf action has been seen before, means anything suited and mildly connected

BB is a 18/13/2.3, eh tag

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, Button caps, BB calls, Hero calls.

Everything fine here..

Flop: (12.33 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

BB tends to autobet the flop in these is situations, raise is a no brainer. When button 3bets, I'm 90% sure he's on the flush draw, I probably should have capped it, but BB calling had to indicate I'm in trouble, so I cooled down.

Turn: (10.66 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, BB caps, Hero calls, Button calls.

Here's where I donkey up. I figured if BB had AK, he picked up a gutshot, also knew button was on a draw, and thought he could push me off AJ or somesuch. With my picked up draw and four other outs to twopair/trip, as well as the chance that I was already ahead and to further charge buttons draw, I 3bet.. is this a not even close bad play, or a probably doesn't matter either way?

River: (22.66 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

Uh, yeah, so I should fold here. Shut up already.

Final Pot: 28.66 BB

I guess if I'm worried about saving a turn bet here I should not be an ass and fold the river, but yeah?

wheelz · #2 07-24-2005, 05:15 AM

Oh yeah that's a spew alright. I would've capped the flop seeing how the other guy is an idiot and BB just called the 3-bet, then would've bet the turn. The 3-bet on the turn is awful... obviously you're behind BB, 3-betting is just charging you more to draw, maybe it even knocks out the other guy so you lose value on that draw... it's just not doing you any good at all

weevil · #3 07-24-2005, 05:49 PM

BB had JJ for the flopped set, and button had the diamonds to take down the pot. If I had called bb's turn cr (instead of foolishly 3betting), I had to expect 3 outcomes..

1) button would call with his draw, in which case I'd be getting 7:1 immediate and probably ~9:1 implied, or

2) button would 3bet his draw and bb just calls (probably with AJ or an overpair), in which case I would've been getting over 5:1 on my draw immediate, ~7:1 implied, or worst case,

3) button 3bets and bb caps with a set (probably his only capping hands), in which case I'm getting over 4:1 immediate and ~6:1 implied.

In the first case my king is still possibly a clean out unless BB has pocket kings, so I'd have anywhere from 11 to 13 outs, 12 outs being a 2.8:1 draw, easy call. Second case is still a call, give myself say 10 outs, 3.6:1 getting over 4:1. Third case sucks, I probably only have my flush outs, which seem to all be clean, but that's 4.1:1 getting about that. So it seems like on average, I'll be getting 5.5:1 on a 3.5:1 draw, so this it's an easy call to see the river. Given the action of the hand, I have to fold on the river, as I'm pretty certain BB doesn't cap without a set on the turn, and buttons draw came through. The only possible outcome that I beat is button pushing a j10 flopped OESD and BB grossly overpushing AK or AJ. Maybe my first call wasn't awful, this situation might occur more than 1:24, but I can't call the raise. It's good to look at hands like these and make sure we aren't throwing money away in action pots by averaging the likely hands outagainst us, and the action we can expect when we don't close it.

Fiddler · #4 07-24-2005, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Here's where I donkey up. I figured if BB had AK, he picked up a gutshot, also knew button was on a draw, and thought he could push me off AJ or somesuch. With my picked up draw and four other outs to twopair/trip, as well as the chance that I was already ahead and to further charge buttons draw, I 3bet.. is this a not even close bad play, or a probably doesn't matter either way?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't looked at the results yet... but yuck! So you think a taggy player that seems to be on the tight side based on your stats 3-bets from BB, calls two cold on the flop and raises the turn with overcards and a gutshot when he has two opponents? I really doubt that he is trying to "move" you off anything simply because it usually doesn't work. Especially in a 3 way pot where the guy that almost certainly is on a draw and 3-bet the flop just bet again when he had the perfect opportunity to take a free card.

Maybe you shouldn't be so focused on your first read but make room to change it as the hand progresses?

weevil · #5 07-24-2005, 06:29 PM

If I had thought it was a good play/read, I wouldn't be posting this or have referred to myself as donkeying it up [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Fiddler · #6 07-25-2005, 02:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I had thought it was a good play/read, I wouldn't be posting this or have referred to myself as donkeying it up [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only trying to help drive the lesson home. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]