AQs hits the flop when the pot is large

mannika · #1 01-10-2005, 12:03 PM

This hand came up today, thought it was pretty interesting, and I'm unsure as to how to play it. I think it may relate to HEFAP p.170 for those interested.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero...

Essentially, by betting here, any K/J is going to call, and is getting odds to do so. Is the proper play here to check the flop, and then bet/raise the turn, providing no K/J falls?

JinX11 · #2 01-10-2005, 12:08 PM

You have to bet. Yes, any K/J has odds to continue, but by not betting, you are giving these hands infinite odds.

EDIT: Even if the straight it completed, you still have 4 outs to a boat. Bet, bet, bet. Charge the draws.

EDIT EDIT: This is covered very well in ToP; if you haven't read it, I suggest you do so right away. A few chapters will blow your mind.

chief444 · #3 01-10-2005, 12:10 PM

Bet. Why would you want to wait? So what if any K or J will call here. So will any Ax, Qx, Tx, etc.

PokerBob · #4 01-10-2005, 12:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, by betting here, any K/J is going to call, and is getting odds to do so. Is the proper play here to check the flop, and then bet/raise the turn, providing no K/J falls?

[/ QUOTE ]

They have odds to call, but by giving them a free card you give them infinite odds. Bet. Charge the draws. Just because they are correct to call does not mean that you are incorrect to bet. You have the best hand. Bet for value. Look at it this way, any K/J has 4 outs, but you have the LEAD with top 2 pair, PLUS 4 outs to fill up. BetBetBet.

mannika · #5 01-10-2005, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet. Why would you want to wait? So what if any K or J will call here. So will any Ax, Qx, Tx, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

The consensus seems to be to bet the flop. Could anyone with a copy of HEFAP on them tell me what the fundamental difference between this situation and the one on p.170 is? Is it that the pot size in this situation isn't large enough, or that non-drawing dominated hands will still be calling, or something else altogether?

chief444 · #6 01-10-2005, 12:18 PM

I have no idea what the book says but in this case a big reason I believe not to wait is

[ QUOTE ]
that non-drawing dominated hands will still be calling

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what you just said.

Post the example from the book if you have time.

mannika · #7 01-10-2005, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This hand came up today, thought it was pretty interesting, and I'm unsure as to how to play it. I think it may relate to HEFAP p.170 for those interested.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero...

Essentially, by betting here, any K/J is going to call, and is getting odds to do so. Is the proper play here to check the flop, and then bet/raise the turn, providing no K/J falls?

[/ QUOTE ]

I ended up checking the flop, and my reasoning was as follows:

Assume a set of separate situations
1) If button bets, J/K will call, and I will get a chance to double/triple bet them
2) If button checks and next card is J/K, I save myself a SB
3) If button checks and next card is not J/K, I have shown weakness on the flop, and will most likely be bet into. Now that I have been bet into, I can raise to knock out J/K drawers.

Is my logic flawed here? Or is it just that betting the flop yields greater benefits than those I have listed for checking the flop?

EDIT: I've read TOP/HEFAP, and I am well aware of the principle of making drawing hands pay. What I am asking essentially, is whether this situation is different that normal ones, due to the number of opponents and size of the pot, as per HEFAP p.171.

PokerBob · #8 01-10-2005, 12:28 PM

I think that example from HFAP may be for situations when you may already be ebhind, but I'm not sure.

mannika · #9 01-10-2005, 12:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Post the example from the book if you have time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the example from p.171 of HEFAP (sorry, was 171, not 170):

You have AA on the button, many players are in, and the pot is very large. The flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and it is checked to you.

"The play is to also check! Then when someone bets on fourth street you raise -- unless a ten or a nine comes off. Again, if someone is going to draw out on you on thet urn you can't prevent it anyway. By playing your hand this way you'll be able to stop him from drawing out on you on the end."

PokerBob · #10 01-10-2005, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Assume a set of separate situations
1) If button bets, J/K will call, and I will get a chance to double/triple bet them
2) If button checks and next card is J/K, I save myself a SB
3) If button checks and next card is not J/K, I have shown weakness on the flop, and will most likely be bet into. Now that I have been bet into, I can raise to knock out J/K drawers.

Is my logic flawed here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is. Terribly so, IMO. If you think the button will bet, won't he perhaps raise? Then you DEFINITELY should bet to cut down the odds of the field when button raises. Hoping he will bet so you can 3-bet is foolish. Anyone with a gutshot will still have odds to call. This is NOT a hand you want to trap people into the pot with, because like you said yourself, anyone with a K or J has odds to call. Trap people when you have MONSTERS. On this board, your hand is not a monster.