Poker simulators: Are any of them any good?

I am looking at Poker Academy, but I am curious if there are thoughts on whether these simulators are of any value whatsoever. And if they are, which one is best, etc.

Thanks.

[johnnypoker]

try wilson software - turbo texas hold em'
this guy has been putting the best out for years... it is pricy but well worth it.

[theRealMacoy]

actually, poker academy is the industry standard when it comes to AI. it was developed by an AI research group out of the university of Alberta. wilson's doesn't even come close when it comes to the ability of the players to learn and adapt against you. wilson's used to uniquely offer the ability to do long range hand analyses but now there are many other free programs that do it as well.

if you are a beginner then this is extremely helpful. you can program the play of your opponents to simulate the type of games you will be playing.

cheers,
sean

I have used several when I first started playing, the one I like most is here http://www.allinpokerresource.com/dir/calculatem.html and I believe they have a free trial

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
wilson's used to uniquely offer the ability to do long range hand analyses but now there are many other free programs that do it as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

can you elaborate? what exactly do you mean by "long range hand analyses"?

[theRealMacoy]

i was refering to running monte carlo simulations.... specifying the variables (e.g., your hand, the board cards, the number of opponents, and even a range of hands for specific opponents) and the number of simulations to run.

people use these programs everyday on these boards to find out the odds of a specific hand winning.

what i meant by long term is that to get any kind of accuracy in your query you need to run a really large number of repitions. your answer will only begin to converge with the "true" odds with greater repitions. to obtain "ball park" odds you need only run a couple hundred thousand or so.

this used to be a sought after feature of wilson's but now there are many free programs available that are more efficient in running longer queries.

http://www.pokerstove.com/
http://www.twodimes.net/poker/

cheers,
sean

[Shandrax]

There is lots on this subject in Mason's Poker Essays. He claims that poker simulations would be good, if the software would actually play good, but this is not the case (yet), therefore the conclusions are mostly misleading.

Now this was written a couple of years ago and since then the programs have been improved a lot, but the basic observation should still be valid. The conclusions are only as good as the software.

[Easy E]

[ QUOTE ]
i was refering to running monte carlo simulations.... specifying the variables (e.g., your hand, the board cards, the number of opponents, and even a range of hands for specific opponents) and the number of simulations to run.

this used to be a sought after feature of wilson's but now there are many free programs available that are more efficient in running longer queries.

sean

[/ QUOTE ]

The one important thing you left out is all of the simulators out there EXCEPT the Wilson products are hot-n-cold simulators- meaning, no betting and no folding as a result of betting.

Those simulators will tell you that 22 is a better playing hand than AK, for the money. Anyone believe that?

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i was refering to running monte carlo simulations.... specifying the variables (e.g., your hand, the board cards, the number of opponents, and even a range of hands for specific opponents) and the number of simulations to run.

this used to be a sought after feature of wilson's but now there are many free programs available that are more efficient in running longer queries.

sean

[/ QUOTE ]

The one important thing you left out is all of the simulators out there EXCEPT the Wilson products are hot-n-cold simulators- meaning, no betting and no folding as a result of betting.


[/ QUOTE ]

yeah that's why I asked for clarification -- I was aware of pokerstove etc., but what would be wicked cool is for a simulator that allows you to input a range for your opponent, then the software divides that range into categories like A high, set, flush draw, gutshot, etc, and allows you to run simulations against those categories. IE for the A high category (on the turn) you would specify the actions he would take for categories of rivers: he will raise any A, fold any spade, call the rest; with a set he will raise any river except a spade, etc.

Is this more like what the wilson software will allow you to do? Or do they just use AI and you can only specify "this guy is tight" and it plays it out for you, using a tight AI vs loose AI?

thanks

[Easy E]

[ QUOTE ]

yeah that's why I asked for clarification -- I was aware of pokerstove etc., but what would be wicked cool is for a simulator that allows you to input a range for your opponent, then the software divides that range into categories like A high, set, flush draw, gutshot, etc, and allows you to run simulations against those categories. IE for the A high category (on the turn) you would specify the actions he would take for categories of rivers: he will raise any A, fold any spade, call the rest; with a set he will raise any river except a spade, etc.

Is this more like what the wilson software will allow you to do? Or do they just use AI and you can only specify "this guy is tight" and it plays it out for you, using a tight AI vs loose AI?

thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree- I've been bugging Bob to add that type of testing concept to the existing simulations.

What you can do now is: specify players involved (and create your own players with their own settings on how they will react to specific types of boards, with specific hands), set the hands and board cards (any of the 5 board cards) and then run high-speed simulations for millions of hands to get an approximation of hand profits for that scenario.
The simulations will allow players to fold, as opposed to no-fold no-bet simulations that are out there.

How much your win or lose is more important to know than how often you win or lose in my opinion.

Hopefully that answers your question. Check out the Wilson Software website for other information and some downloadable demos if you're interested.