A Preflop Play

[ThinkQuick]

Well, my friend and I have developed very discrepant ideas about whether his play here was correct here. I would sincerely appreciate some 2+2 comments to help us settle.

3/6 game, generally all poor players. Usually ~4 to a flop.

Friend dealt QcTc in UTG+1. UTG fold, Friend limps
Folded to MP who raises, folded to LP who calls the two cold, folded back to friend (including blinds) who calls.

Justification: "that game is crazy and they're stupid idiots who don't know what they're doing"

Help us out?

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

Based on the works of Ed Miller the limp is fine. I think the call on the second time aroud is fine too given immediate 6.5:1.

[Evan]

Since you put both plays in italics I assume you disagree with both. Limping is fine for reasons that are hard to quantify. I think its enough to say that you can limp here with QTs just because you can (much in the same way you could limp A7s and JTs). Calling the raise if way way finer than the original limp. Never limp and fold to one raise.

[Entity]

If you were CDC, you would raise. But me, I limp. If the table is really aggressive, I might fold. But I'm not folding QTs here in either case, and I don't see how you could fault someone for limping with it.

Rob

[Fat Nicky]

This play is standard for me.

[Niediam]

This play is so standard I seriously read it twice because I assumed I read something wrong.

[sthief09]

if the game is tight or aggressive, I'd muck it. I wouldn't even muck QJs UTG, but I often muck JTs UTG in tight or aggressive games (as 3/6 can be). QTs is somewhere in between those hands, so it could go either way. in general though, I'm starting to realize how important it is to be really tight up front with hands that hit a lot of mediocre flops. if he limps, and there was another limper or two, then a raiser, his hand becomes very tough to play if he flops something like middle pair and a gut shot or backdoor flush draw. I'd much rather play a hand like a small pair UTG because most of the time I'll either be folding the flop, or pumping a set, where relative position is more important than absolute position. since he said they all suck, it's fine.

[HajiShirazu]

I would usually fold this preflop, because I guess I always seem to do pretty badly postflop out of position. It seems like with this hand you end up with a weak top pair or second pair and you're kind of stuck playing it and making those ugly out of position crying bets, or you end up with some sort of draw and you waste money on semi-bluffs or get stuck paying a lot for your draw, the type of stuff that doesn't happen when you play this hand in positon. That isn't necessarily a good reason not to play the hand, since somebody who was real good postflop and had good opponent reads might be able to avoid some of that stuff, I guess it's just why I don't play this hand. And with KTs or KJs I would definately play and probably raise most of the time, and I might play QJs, so I guess it can't be that bad.
If the game was really loose then I would limp with this hand but that would be the only situation. The party 3/6 isn't THAT loose unless you're sitting at a good table.

[ThinkQuick]

I did disagree with the limp.
Though I think calling the raise is fine, I just didn't think that the whole situation of being in for 2 bets with QTs, first to act, against a preflop raiser and cold caller was a desirable place to be, and it could've been avoided by tightening up preflop restrictions in EP. On reviewing some things Miller has said, I see that it should be playable at a loose passive game. My 4 to a flop 3/6 game probably qualifies, although there was a high amount of raising going on.
Am I putting too much emphasis on position in a LL game?